Quote from: BarefootGaijin;804068It is balancing up "knowing a system" + "converting and house ruling" versus "learning a new system".

Yep, which is a question you have to ask with any RPG

In comparison with BRP Mecha, I would add that CTech is a simpler, tailor made and has all the add ons that you would need to add to BRP in a single rulebook.

Quote from: Skywalker;804061Though I agree the system is not without it's flaws and it is a first effort, I think it plays a lot better than its critics suggest. As said, the reliable result range with possibility of huge successes, along with the engaging and risky drama point system do a lot to promote the right feel..

I've actually played it and that's why I'm criticizing it. Simply put, my experiences were not the same as yours. I've got a friend who isn't a game author, or really care as long as the game does what it says on the tin--and he was our GM, and basically ended the campaign solely because of the system. (We were mostly having fun, but that was in spite of the system, and more on his GMing skills.)

Quote from: Silverlion;804072I've actually played it and that's why I'm criticizing it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to discount your experience No RPG is for everyone.

IMO unfairly treated on RPGnet and certain other boards, where some very valid criticisms have blown all other criticisms way out of proportions. So, I promote CTech hard where I can to allow people to hear some of the positives about the RPG that are normally drowned out.

And I am not saying you are doing that as FWIW I consider your opinions are genuine, considered and balanced

I also happen to own a lot of Cthulutech books (all of those avaible in print, I think) and I really dig the art direction. I will agree that the game system and its settings are not without flaw but I feel like Skywalker that some (otherwise valid) criticisms were blown out of proportion.

Quote from: Skywalker;804074And I am not saying you are doing that as FWIW I consider your opinions are genuine, considered and balanced

The sad thing is we ALL really loved the idea. I even did art for "patch" that our group belonged too,  the Devil Dogs. I wish they'd gone in with some of the criticisms in mind and done a 2nd edition. Something a little tighter written, and fix most of the big issues. Alas, they seemed to have written it--published it, given it a little life than abandoned it for what are they doing now "The Void?"

I understand being a small press guy and trying to do multiple things, but even I'm doing a 2E of  H&S

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;804063I love the mechs, I love the idea, I have yet to try it. I too would maybe want to BRP it. Not because "muh CoC is bee-arr-pee", but because it would just make life easier (though the poker dice are groovy). I am torn. I love the mechs in CTech, I can dig it in general but what concessions or elements are going to be compromised by using another system with the fluff? If any?

This is what I want. I am completely turned off by the "design your own mech" mentality. If I wanted to do that, I'd write the whole damn game not buy a book suggesting...... grrr!

Outside of BRP Mecha's mecha design rules, I also find myself adverse to mecha RPGs that are based around "build-a-mecha" conceits. It's not something I want to deal with as the GM or even as a player very much.

Quote from: Skywalker;804061Though I agree the system is not without it's flaws and it is a first effort, I think it plays a lot better than its critics suggest. As said, the reliable result range with possibility of huge successes, along with the engaging and risky drama point system do a lot to promote the right feel.

In addition, it gets a bunch of things right (for me at least) that very few mecha RPGs have managed. The focus away from constructing mecha and tactical combat to mecha action centred around their pilots is simply fantastic (especially when you add CTech's solid base for weirdness). It's balance of realism, OTT anime, and a dark and sexy future is pretty cool too, and not fleshed out in many mecha RPGs to the same extent as CTech.

It is also an easy to tinker with and speed up aspects without changing the underlying math. For example, we changed each d10 of damage and armour into 1 damage and divided Vitality/Integrity by 5. Scale issues are almost entirely resolved by using x5 rather than x50 between tiers too.

I also think that the setting is better for the genre than the common outcry would suggest. Yes, they made a handful of stupid calls when dealing with sexual issues, but I find the complaints piled on top of that are blown entirely out of proportion. The setting isn't intended to be most of the things that those critics insist (to the point of sabotaging any other discussuon of the setting) it must be.

Quote from: Skywalker;804066Compromises includes the effort in conversion (made more difficult by its broad range of abilities and power levels), the dice system which allows for reliable result with huge successes allowing for that right balance of realism and cinematic, and engaging yet risky drama point system adding tension.

CTech's system does its job well. If you like BRP better and are willing to put in effort regardless, then BRP will be a good option. But if not, you really need to ask what does BRP add that CTech doesn't for a CTech game?

The only thing I see that BRP Mecha does better than CTech is that it has guidelines for generating mecha using technical specs from what ever media that you are intending to emulate. Which is a plus if you want to run a mecha focused game based off of a niche or new show instead of using whatever is stock with the system you are using.

Quote from: Skywalker;804069Yep, which is a question you have to ask with any RPG

In comparison with BRP Mecha, I would add that CTech is a simpler, tailor made and has all the add ons that you would need to add to BRP in a single rulebook.

Well BRP's basic roll under your skill is a lot simpler and more intuitive than Framewerk, but I can see how all the various subsystems can make BRP more complex than CTech, especailly when adding in BRP Mecha's take on mecha combat, which I've never bothered using straight from the book anyways.

Quote from: Silverlion;804072I've actually played it and that's why I'm criticizing it. Simply put, my experiences were not the same as yours. I've got a friend who isn't a game author, or really care as long as the game does what it says on the tin--and he was our GM, and basically ended the campaign solely because of the system. (We were mostly having fun, but that was in spite of the system, and more on his GMing skills.)

Quote from: Silverlion;804060I'll be honest. Do this anyway. The system really doesn't hold up well in play, it is too complex for the data returned. The writers really didn't seem to know what they were doing with it, and generally didn't do any research on a lot of things in their books. So best to do something cool with a system more elegant and mature.

Can you give some specific system criticisms?



Other than my initial sour taste of the system with people, who are admitably new and hard to get engaged with tabletop RPGs, I find myself wanting to do a campaign based in space rather than on the Earth's surface, either against the Nazzadi, because they are notZentradi, or against the Migou, because fighting space bugs in space with giant robots should be fun right?

Quote from: Skywalker;804054As said, I also did a series of ready to run Demo scenarios with Wildfire's consent. ...

Awesome! Thanks for sharing. I may plunder for a demo run at a local con.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;804104... or against the Migou, because fighting space bugs in space with giant robots should be fun right?

Hells yes! :-)  The CTech take on Migou, and the art that goes along with it, give a super creepy alien feel to them. Even if you use another system, you can plunder the artwork and setting.

Also, for a lighter system and Cthulu based hard sci-fi, check out The Void. Made by the same folks, uses a d6 dice pool.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;804104The only thing I see that BRP Mecha does better than CTech is that it has guidelines for generating mecha using technical specs from what ever media that you are intending to emulate. Which is a plus if you want to run a mecha focused game based off of a niche or new show instead of using whatever is stock with the system you are using.

CTech is specifically designed for its setting. If you want to go beyond that or build your own setting, then I can see real value in BRP Mecha. It's inherently better designed for that.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;804104Well BRP's basic roll under your skill is a lot simpler and more intuitive than Framewerk, but I can see how all the various subsystems can make BRP more complex than CTech, especailly when adding in BRP Mecha's take on mecha combat, which I've never bothered using straight from the book anyways.

And don't forget magic, psionics, monsters, shapechanging PC monsters and all the other stuff in CTech. Bringing that all together in BRP would increase the complexity.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;804104Other than my initial sour taste of the system with people, who are admitably new and hard to get engaged with tabletop RPGs, I find myself wanting to do a campaign based in space rather than on the Earth's surface, either against the Nazzadi, because they are notZentradi, or against the Migou, because fighting space bugs in space with giant robots should be fun right?

Check out Burning Horizons. It contain a few space capable mecha and PA and a number of space based scenarios. My scenario, Arnimor DUAL, is space based and inspired by Gundam. The rules work fine as written for spaced based combat, and I found Burning Horizons to fill in any conceptual gaps I had.

Quote from: trechriron;804132Awesome! Thanks for sharing. I may plunder for a demo run at a local con.

I would love to hear how they go. They are all detailed (40+ pages), a challenge to run, and have downbeat endings. But they were an absolute blast (and I have heard back from several others how ran them to the same result) and even won some local awards.

Quote from: Silverlion;804098The sad thing is we ALL really loved the idea. I even did art for "patch" that our group belonged too,  the Devil Dogs. I wish they'd gone in with some of the criticisms in mind and done a 2nd edition. Something a little tighter written, and fix most of the big issues. Alas, they seemed to have written it--published it, given it a little life than abandoned it for what are they doing now "The Void?"

I am hopeful that we will see Dead Gods before it finishes its run. And to be honest, at that point, I would happy with what I have.

It is a shame though about a 2e. I think it could have knocked things out of the park on KS, as CTech has lots of fans. But Wildfire had such a hard publishing run, and have lost some of their talent, that I am not sure they could pull off a 2e successfully.

I honestly love the mechanics of Cthulhutech. It's clean, makes sense and is easy to run. However...

I don't particularly find the underlying tone of anime-inspired, alien tentacle rape camps particularly compelling. The authors really turned me off their system when they defended design choices to promote explicitly unavoidable, sexual violence upon PCs as a part of "the story". The misogyny was unmistakeable, reeking of everything I disdain of a very small subculture of RPG fans.

Rape can be used as a story element, which can resonate powerfully with players. But like all thematic elements of a story, it should be used sparingly. Systemizing it is in bad taste, and is lazy, immature writing.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the adventures for Cthulhutech are just bad, with only some improvement in Burning Horizons. It was the main thing that motivated me to write my own demo scenarios TBH.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;804165... The misogyny was unmistakeable, reeking of everything I disdain of a very small subculture of RPG fans.

... Systemizing it is in bad taste, and is lazy, immature writing.

What were the elements you felt were misogynstic?

What system-ized the rape? It was part of an adventure, not even a wide-spread thing. Maybe the rape camps of the Deep Ones, but that's been in Cthulu-lore for a long time before CT did it.

EDIT: What I mean is: I don't see any RPG mechanics around rape or rape machines in the game. So what do you mean by "system-ized".

I hardly think it's fair to describe the writing in CT as lazy. It is a fun read with lots of detail. I must have browsed 100 pages of material last night and only the Fed Agent adventure with the slave girls being "objectionable".

There are a couple of other examples in the books which I think clearly warrant criticism. Then there are a number of other examples that getidentified but wouldn't cause issue if those 2-3 main examples weren't present.

But TBH this thread is about the mechanics and the issue with those examples has been thrashed to death, even in CTech threads where it isn't relevant (like this one). It would be cool to keep focus on the OP.

If its not taking the thread too much off topic, does the CTech setting have room for non mecha based campaigns?