I'm approaching 40 myself, and have never heard that applied as a racial slur in my life. When I hear spook, I think of secret agents first, then maybe Scooby Doo second.

I think the only way you would hit trouble with calling a secret agent a spook in a game is if the game also used the blackploitation genre as a theme.

Canadian for reference. And I think in any number of movies and television, when someone was referred to as a spook, it was "agent".

People like (many here) who watch spy shows (and MI-5 is great if you haven't seen it)  and generally do not use terms like spook as a racial slur aren't going to be your problem.

But it is likely someone is going to latch onto it, and then we will have spookgate.

Using it as a reference to spies is perfectly acceptable and should not offend any reasonable person. You can't do much about what unreasonable people think.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;803667I think it just says volumes about what a well-mannered, considerate guy I am.

Seriously though, I'm specifically trying to include a stronger mix of character models of different ages, sexes, and races in this product than I had in the core rulebook (even though I tried, as described on my blog). It's realistic, appropriate for the setting, and appeals to a wider range of potential customers, so there's no reason not to. I didn't want to do that and then also throw in a racial slur.

It's a sentiment I can get behind. D&D 5e made a genuine effort to do the same, and for some reason my world didn't end. If it helped others enjoy the game better then the more, the merrier.

As for the word "Spook", your context is clear so I wouldn't sweat it, unless you could think of/find a really badass replacement.

Quote from: Lynn;803772People like (many here) who watch spy shows (and MI-5 is great if you haven't seen it)  and generally do not use terms like spook as a racial slur aren't going to be your problem.

But it is likely someone is going to latch onto it, and then we will have spookgate.

it will be interesting to see what the next -gate will be

The thread title had me rolling my eyes. Duh. How is that not racist?

Then I clicked on it and read the original post.

Duh. Why would you even think that is racist?

Calling spies and secret agents spooks? Not racist.

Calling black people spooks? Racist.

What concerns me is the worry that the two can be confused. Just the thread title alone gives the detractors of this site ammunition.

It wasn't until only very recently that I learned spook was a racial slur.  Till then, I just knew it as slang for a spy/government goon.  To be honest, I and everyone I know can't see the term as anything other than shorthand for spy so I think you should be fine.

Quote from: Chainsaw;803776Using it as a reference to spies is perfectly acceptable and should not offend any reasonable person. You can't do much about what unreasonable people think.

Exactly. You cannot crazyproof a game, book, whatever.

Basically here we have a game about spies. Spies are called spooks commonly now.  Ghosts are called spooks. The racial slur is rarely used and if someone picks up a spy game and screams racist! Then theres nothing you can do about that sort of stupid. They could just as easily throw a fit and claim you are selling pro-torture propaganda. You CANNOT win. EVER.



Yes, someone claimed the Vogue cover was an allusion to the poster.

Quote from: everloss;803780The thread title had me rolling my eyes. Duh. How is that not racist?

Then I clicked on it and read the original post.

Duh. Why would you even think that is racist?

Calling spies and secret agents spooks? Not racist.

Calling black people spooks? Racist.

What concerns me is the worry that the two can be confused. Just the thread title alone gives the detractors of this site ammunition.

What do you call black spies (technically black intelligence officers as spy actually = agent=asset )

well that was part of the inital problem the spy was going to be a black guy

Quote from: tuypo1;803816well that was part of the inital problem the spy was going to be a black guy

That might invite controversy that would be harder to dismiss, regardless of your intent.

The two currently used definitions of "spook" are "ghost" and "operative/spy".

That said, the older, racist definition of spook is something you'd only hear in the elderly these days, as it evokes the Birth of a Nation/DW Griffiths era.

Even the New York Times uses the term "spook" for a spy or an operative, so I think you're okay in its usage.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;803840That said, the older, racist definition of spook is something you'd only hear in the elderly these days, as it evokes the Birth of a Nation/DW Griffiths era.

I'd be interested if you have a source for a early 1900s usage. Everything I've read or heard dates the first occurrence of spook as a racial term to WWII/1940s.

It was fairly common in the 1940s and 1950s as a jive term for blacks and (probably later) as a racial slur. In addition to Grand Torino it is used in Back to the Future. Also used for its shock value on US prime time television in the 1970s on All in the Family.

Quote from: January 12, 1971Is it funny, for example, to have the pot-bellied, church-going, cigar-smoking son of Middle America, Archie Bunker, the hero of All in the Family, fill the screen with such epithets as "spic" and "spade" and "hebe" and "yid" and "polack"? Is it funny for him to refer to his son-in-law as "the laziest white man I ever seen"? Or to look at a televised football game and yell, "Look at that spook run...it's in his blood"?

It's not a big deal to use spooks for spies in a modern setting. The racial slur meaning would come up and be noticeable, even jarring, though possibly ironic, if the game was set in the 1940s or 1950s with an important NPC black spy since spook was used both as a racial slur and as a term for spy back then while black spies were likely pretty rare. Since the OP mentioned wanting to include pictures of a black spy in the game, I understand why he asked the question even in a modern setting.

Quote from: Chainsaw;803776Using it as a reference to spies is perfectly acceptable and should not offend any reasonable person. You can't do much about what unreasonable people think.

Agreed. (bold emphasis mine)

Quote from: Bren;803849I'd be interested if you have a source for a early 1900s usage. Everything I've read or heard dates the first occurrence of spook as a racial term to WWII/1940s.

It was fairly common in the 1940s and 1950s as a jive term for blacks and (probably later) as a racial slur. In addition to Grand Torino it is used in Back to the Future. Also used for its shock value on US prime time television in the 1970s on All in the Family.


It's not a big deal to use spooks for spies in a modern setting. The racial slur meaning would come up and be noticeable, even jarring, though possibly ironic, if the game was set in the 1940s or 1950s with an important NPC black spy since spook was used both as a racial slur and as a term for spy back then while black spies were likely pretty rare. Since the OP mentioned wanting to include pictures of a black spy in the game, I understand why he asked the question even in a modern setting.

I don't have a reference for specifically the rise of the 20th Century KKK for the spook term; it just evokes a much older era than the 60s Civil Rights era.

According to etymology online, both the spy/operative and the racist version of "spook" originated in the WW2 era, which I found very interesting given that my relatives who used the term were already in their 40s during the WW2 era.  My (racist) relatives who fought in WW2 used other racist slang, not "spook".  That's part of the reason why I suggested it was older than WW2.