Pundy,

I just bought a hardcopy of Arrows to supplement my pdf copy (I think I'm more likely to run it with a hardcopy). I was browsing the magic section and saw how some magic is treated as skills, some as powers. I also noticed that the magic isn't warmed over D&D stuff, it felt appropriate to the setting.

Could you talk me through a little how you approached the magic rules, the feel you were going for, the underlying philosophy of it, that sort of thing? Please assume (correctly) that I have no real knowledge of Indian mythology.

Thanks!

Quote from: D-503;801558Pundy,

I just bought a hardcopy of Arrows to supplement my pdf copy (I think I'm more likely to run it with a hardcopy). I was browsing the magic section and saw how some magic is treated as skills, some as powers. I also noticed that the magic isn't warmed over D&D stuff, it felt appropriate to the setting.

Could you talk me through a little how you approached the magic rules, the feel you were going for, the underlying philosophy of it, that sort of thing? Please assume (correctly) that I have no real knowledge of Indian mythology.

Thanks!

Well, thanks for your interest!

The magic system was of course one of the trickiest things to handle in the AoI rules, in terms of fulfilling all the goals with it: first, to make it playable. Second, that it remain relatively familiar to OSR gamers, and third that it at least broadly reflect the style and thematics of the Epic Indian setting.

So I could have (and considered) experimenting with a bunch of stuff that more elaborately applied Indian "magical ideas".  In the first place, I discarded working with stuff related to things like Chakras, etc., because these are all in fact much LATER ideas, that wouldn't technically fit in the time period.

I considered being more elaborate and detailed about things like Mantras or Mudras, but discarded these for reasons of complexity; if you're talking about an OSR game, there's no more reason to have to include detailed material about mantras or mudras than there would be to include detailed material about Solomonic Magick in a medieval fantasy setting.  D&D has never been about "authentic thaumaturgy" on the system side of things, and always about just assuming that this was what the PC was doing in the setting without having to elaborately explain what that looked like in the system rules.

So anyways, one of the big things I did want to have was a system that could fit in with the skill system I had in mind but that would also reflect the idea of magical powers being related attainments in meditation, etc. that would not necessarily be just a question of technical skill.  So for that reason, and also because it would otherwise have been tricky to fit them into the (small) skill tables, I split magic into a division between a very limited number of the most common sorts of magical effects being in the skill tables, and everything else fitting into "enlightenment powers".

Now, in standard D&D you usually have a very predictable progression of access to spells; this I think is an accurate (though not detailed) reflection of a lot of the western perspective on occultism (and specifically western medieval perspectives).  But for the Indian setting, I wanted to create a system where it was a lot less predictable.  A Siddhi PC could gain anywhere between 0-4 'spells' each level.  This would reflect the somewhat haphazard experiences of eastern mysticism, where magical powers happen as a result in sudden breakthroughs in consciousness expansion.

I included a lot of other Indian concepts, besides mantra and mudra (magic/holy words vibrated to create powerful effects, or hand gestures that do the same), in the Enlightenment powers I touch on concepts like Prana (the energy related to the breath, which is like the Indian equivalent of the more-famous asian concept of "chi"), the nadis (energy channels in the body, which can be manipulated or short-circuited to various effects), and of course stuff like reincarnation.  

I'm not sure if there's other things you want to know, or if I did a good job of explaining things here.    If you have more specific questions (or if anyone else does!) I'll be really  happy to answer.

That is really interesting.

Quote from: danbuter;801910That is really interesting.

Thanks.

This is definitely one of the cooler aspects of the game in my opinion.

Mr Pundit, i have noticed the magic system bears a very close resemblence to the one used in Empire of the Petal Throne(OD&D edition). Was Empire of the Petal Throne one of the main inspirations for the magic system in Arrows of Indra?

Let's clarify that PoN is a troll from the "your dungeon is suck" site, which seems to have taken over as the place for anti-OSR trolls now that grognards.txt was shut down by something awful for being too awful even for them.

He's also apparently a serious transphobe, but that's neither here nor there.

In any case, yes, the MECHANICS of the EPT magic system were an inspiration, for a very obvious reason (well, two actually): first, Barker was making a setting that was inspired by the EXACT SAME THING that AoI was inspired by: ancient epic/mythic India.  And unlike forge storygames or things like that, the OSR is not about reinventing the wheel from scratch but making use of what's already there and finding ways to improve upon them.  So of course some of the magical powers are going to be similar, because Barker was cutting/pasting some of the exact same stuff I was: 3000-year old Indian myth.  And because he had already made a skeletal framework for a method to fairly adequately address questions of caste and class, as well as how magic works, I was naturally going to make use of that skeletal framework as the foundation for my own magic system.  

So you could say it's an "inspiration", but for example it's less of an inspiration for AoI than Gary Gygax's magic system is for LotFP or ACKS.

The second reason is because EPT was hijacked at a very early point in its history by a gang of Swine who didn't want gonzo/epic fantasy as much as anthropological culturewank.  And one of the things that challenged me to write Arrows of Indra in the first place was the question of "could I do what EPT tried to do, but do it right? Can you create an OSR game that incorporates authentic cultural/mythological elements (in more than just a 'kung-fu movies' or 'bad stereotypes' kind of way) and make it something immediately playable for D&D players?"

Because one of the things a lot of the EPT-swine claim is that other grognards just don't get them because they're too dumb, or its just too hard to present the culture in a way that is rapidly accessible.  And I knew that was bullshit. So something of my interest in writing AoI at the get go was to prove the EPT-culturewankers wrong, and I did.

Oh, and besides me and Barker, you know who else ripped off ancient Indian myth?

ALL OF EUROPEAN CULTURE.

And as a byproduct for that, most of European religion, fantasy, and legends can be said to be 'indian legends with the serial numbers filed off'.  

That can understandably lead to some confusion: for example, pretty much all of those magic items that you talk about in the review, that you claim are just a ripoff of D&D magic items; well, yeah, you could sort of say they are, but it would be  more accurate to say that D&D's magic items are a ripoff of western mythology, which is a ripoff of indian mythology, which explains why just about every damn item in the AoI magic setting either directly appears or has significant precedent for being a direct part of Indian mythology.

I can understand the confusion because you are likely ignorant of these things, just as your little friend were when they tried to claim that it was an anachronism to have goblins in AoI... sorry, wait, I'll explain it in easier language: your friends thought that I was dumb for putting goblins in a game about India, but they were the dumb ones because they didn't know that there ARE goblins in Indian stories!

That might explain why you seemed so confused about certain issues.  In any case, the magic items are not actually me ripping off D&D, but me AND D&D and all of western civilization ripping off Indian Myth.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802262Oh, and besides me and Barker, you know who else ripped off ancient Indian myth?

I don't think the charge was that you were ripping off Indian myth, but rather that you were ripping off Barker's game:

QuoteMr Pundit, i have noticed the magic system bears a very close resemblence to the one used in Empire of the Petal Throne(OD&D edition). Was Empire of the Petal Throne one of the main inspirations for the magic system in Arrows of Indra?

I think he was trying to imply both, which in either or both cases means that among the other things he doesn't understand, he apparently doesn't know what the term "OSR" means.   The whole point of the OSR is to use early-system mechanics as a basis to make a new approach with something that wasn't done before (well, some argue the point is JUST to copy early-system mechanics and not do anything new with it, but that would only put this asshole further from anywhere resembling the point!).

He seems to think that "hahaha he was inspired by old-school RPG mechanics" is somehow a criticism, for an OSR game.  When in fact it's pretty much the fucking point.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802275He seems to think that "hahaha he was inspired by old-school RPG mechanics" is somehow a criticism, for an OSR game.  When in fact it's pretty much the fucking point.

I think the question is: did you just slap some Indian names on top of Empire of the Petal Throne's system?

I mean, just because something is OSR doesn't mean it can only use the same stats, mechanics, and rules with no new innovations, right? That would just be clonemania with a thin veneer of "not-Western-fantasy."

I have no dog in this fight as I've read neither EPT or AOI, but I think if you could clarify how mechanically identical the two games are that would be helpful.

Quote from: misterguignol;802279I think the question is: did you just slap some Indian names on top of Empire of the Petal Throne's system?

I mean, just because something is OSR doesn't mean it can only use the same stats, mechanics, and rules with no new innovations, right? That would just be clonemania with a thin veneer of "not-Western-fantasy."

I have no dog in this fight as I've read neither EPT or AOI, but I think if you could clarify how mechanically identical the two games are that would be helpful.

They're largely dissimilar.  EPT is not based on D&D as such (though it shares some similarities) while AoI very clearly is.  There's some similarities in the magic system, if you're talking about mechanics, and pretty much nothing else. I suppose you could say there's also some similarities in the caste-skills system (if I'm remembering correctly, I haven't read EPT in quite a while) but then again you could argue there's about as much similarity to either with AD&D's "secondary skills" system, except that AoI organizes the background/caste skills by social class, and actually has a skill-check mechanic (which is pretty similar to OGL/D20, which EPT obviously is not).

Quote from: RPGPundit;802292EPT is not based on D&D as such (though it shares some similarities)

No idea how similar EPT is to Arrows of Indra -- I never particularly thought of Tekumel as a purely "Indian" setting myself and haven't read the other book yet -- but this bit gets me to prick up my ears. I thought EPT proper was a free adaptation of D&D. Was I misinformed?

It is interesting to contemplate a universe of OSR products spinning out of EPT, Metamorphosis Alpha and other first-generation adaptations as opposed to going straight back to the D&D well. First-wave variants with modern support.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802292They're largely dissimilar.  EPT is not based on D&D as such (though it shares some similarities) while AoI very clearly is.  There's some similarities in the magic system

This is the level of similarity they're discussing over at YDIS; would you say it's accurate? If not, what have they got the wrong end of the stick on?

QuoteOne of these has a tier system and the other does not. Note that in AoI's case a power may be taken more then once. A power is usable 1/day unless clearly marked.[Edit: We disregard minor variations in the number of times a power can be used]
Identical powers are marked with an asterisk.
Priest Skills
1. Theology(skill)
2. Demonology(skill)
3. Languages*
4. Light for 2 hours(30 foot radius)*(1/day)
5. detect holy/unholy(1/day)
6. Heal wounds(touch, minor)* 1/day
7. Sense thoughts (1/day)*
8. Send telepathic message to single person 1/day 18 mile range with reply*
9. Protection from Evil – 3 turns 1/day*
10. More Healing*
11. Dominate (specified non-undead, non animal non-construct)*
12. Remove curse*
Versus
Priest skills
1. Languages(modern)** (single asterisk for both powers)
2. Languages(ancient)
3. Light(30 foot radius) 1/day. – Ten turns duration.*
4. Cure wounds(touch, minor) – 1/day*
5. Sense thoughts – 3/day*
6. Telepathic message with reply 3/day ambiguous range*
7. Protection from evil/good – 3 turns 1/day*
8. More Healing*
9. Dominate person(specified non-undead, non animal non-construct)*
10. Remove curse*
11. Raise dead/revivify
...I think Pundit might be in trouble.
10/12 vs 10/11 convergence(Telepathy was not literally identical because the range was different but i am counting it). Forgive my shitty math but is that an 86.9 percent match? And thats the ones that are identical. Holy shit!
Magic user skills:
1. Control Self(own body).*
2. Illusion power*
3. Clairaudience
4. Clairvoyance*
5. Telekinesis *
6. Astrology*
7. Speak with dead 3/day(unspecified method) and talk with people far away.*
8. Control animals/plants**(once for a control power)
9. Control undead/animate dead*
10. Control specific Underworld Creatures(might be Asura's, might not be)
11. Touch of Death attack*
Magic user skills:
1. Control self(own body)*
2. Demonology
3. Illusion power*
4. Clairvoyance*
5. Astrology*
6. Telekinesis*
7. Speak with dead(astral travel) and talk with living beings/outsiders**
8. Control non-intelligent creatures(including monsters)
9. Control people(multiple)**
10. Control undead/animate dead*
11. Protection Spell
12. Touch of Death*
...I'd start sweating right about now if i was Pundit.
8/11 vs 8/12 approx. Thats still 69% with a lot of slack.
Acid test time. Enlightenment powers vs bonus spells. And these we CAN do by Tier/Level. Note that the means of aquiring them are identical.
Tier 1
1. Calm water/wind/people*
2. Create food/water*
3. Summon monsters*
4. Curse/Bless*
5. Dispel illusion*
6. Dispel Evil/good Spell*
7. Hold portal/open portal*
8. Cause fear*
9. Heal wounds(minor)*
10. Levitate*
11. Light*
12. Locate gold/gems
13. Locate objects*
14. Cause madness*
15. Cause disease*
16. Protection from evil/good*
17. Send wave of shadows that blind*
18. Detect other planar/invisible shit/True vision*
Tier 1(fucked up the order)
1. Light*
2. Calm water/wind/people*
3. Protection from evil/good*
4. Dispel Magic spell*
5. Bless/Curse*
6. Charm monster*
7. Send field of warped perceptions that blind*
8. Find object*
9. Cause insanity(Gaze)*
10. Create food and water*
11. Heal wounds(minor
12. Levitate*
13. Open Portal*
14. Dispel illusion*
15. Cause disease*
16. Hold Portal*
17. Summon Monster*
18. Cause Fear*
19. True vision*
20. Blind Gaze
...If you are reading this Pundit. This is going to get out. We are coming. (17/18 + 19/20). 94.7 % identical. This is some deep next level matrix shit.
Tier 2
1. Charm monster(identical to charm monster tier 1, different game)*
2. Blast of cold*
3. Summon monsters(medium)*
4. Curse Disease*
5. Dispel Magic(Greater) – also works on items*
6. X-ray vision*
7. Bigby's crushing hand(equivalent)
8. Moar healing*
9. Invisibility(Aura)*
10. Neutralize poison*
11. paralysis(chance of permanence second save)*
12. petrify(level drain chance)*
13. Sleep*
14. Slow/haste*
15. transmute mud/water/stone
16. poison cloud*
17. wither limb
18. Curse people to act like animals*
Tier 2
1. Dispel magic(Greater) – Also works on items*
2. Invisibility(Aura)*
3. Walk on Water/Liquid surface
4. Poison cloud*
5. Cure Disease*
6. Moar healing*
7. Become intangible/Walk through solid matter
8. Curse people so their minds become like animals*
9. Paralysis gaze(can become permanent)*
10. X-ray vision*
11. Petrify*
12.Summon monsters(illusionary, function like monsters)*
13. Polymorph Self/Others*
14. Gaze that deals damage over time
15. Sleep*
16. Summon monsters(medium)*
17.Slow*
18. Haste*
19. Wave of Cold*
20. Neutralize poison*
...And it will be damaging to your already tarnished reputation. I promise you this.
15/18+17/20. 86.8 percent convergence. What are the standards for plagiarism again?
Tier 3
1. Create illusion monsters(different tier)*
2. Polymorph self/others(different tier)*
3. Control terrain/earth
4. Greater summoning(single monster)*
5. Call Demon*
6. Doomkill area save or die spell, unpredictable, uses fire
7.Enchant weapons/armour*
8. Blue lightning bolt that deals damage
9. Glittering protection that requires 18 or higher to pass(fuck you im counting it)*
10. Protection from normal weapons(companions also)*
11. Geas(or permanent dominate)
12. Quest*
13. Ressurection*
14. Reincarnation*
15. Develop new spell(research)
16. Spread Plague(cause mass infectious disease)*
17. Protection from missiles and spells(works on user+companions)*
18. Steal soul*
19. Teleport*
20. Walls(fire/ice/stone/swords/wind etc.)
21. Weather control*
22. Wish*
Tier 3
1.Steal soul*
2. Spread plague(cause mass infectious disease)*
3. Control weather*
4. Quest*
5. Reincarnate*
6. Enchant weapons/armour
7. Flight
8. Ressurection*
9. Earth swallows up someone to hell
10. Volley of magical darts
11. Protection from missiles and some spells works on companions*
12. Shield that forces saving throw to attack pc*
13. Summon Greater Being(not singular)* [yeah real creative you made it 1d3)
14. Summon Demon/Deva*
15. Heal/Restore withered limb
16. Protection from normal weapons*
17. Magic lightning bolt that desintegrates all who fail saving throw(going to say that one is sufficiently different for the purposes of this exercise)
18. Teleport*
19. Wish*
20. Fire area attack
The rabbit hole goes deep. 15/22+14/20 = 69.0 % identical, with a few cases that are open for debate is the best the magic system can do as far as originality.

Quote from: econobus;802312No idea how similar EPT is to Arrows of Indra -- I never particularly thought of Tekumel as a purely "Indian" setting myself and haven't read the other book yet -- but this bit gets me to prick up my ears.

Barker was a professor of linguistics, if I'm not remembering wrong, with a specialty in Urdu.  Tekumel is not, like AoI, a direct "D&D in Epic India" setting, and it has a mix of influences from different Indian periods, some gonzo sci-fi, and a little bit of pre-Columbian Meso-America in there too.

QuoteIt is interesting to contemplate a universe of OSR products spinning out of EPT, Metamorphosis Alpha and other first-generation adaptations as opposed to going straight back to the D&D well. First-wave variants with modern support.

Well, just a week or two ago we had a poster here, who was part of Barker's gaming group for a very long time, that said that AoI was the king of game Barker would have liked, and could have been a great ruleset to run Tekumel in (which served to make me feel like I'd met that goal I described above in the thread).  In any case, he certainly didn't seem to feel like I'd "ripped off" Tekumel.

RPGPundit