Quote from: Will;802249Oh hey, fun real world examples:

Kaymakli is interesting to consider, with an eye toward dungeons:

http://www.goreme.com/kaymakli-underground-city.php


Also, mythical Xibalba is basically a 'dungeon dimension' from Mayan mythology!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xibalba

That is very cool.  Thanks for posting it.

You don't have to work too hard to find underground labyrinths in the real world.

The Paris Catacombs. Perfectly built for the lair of Jean-Luc the Unmaker, lich noble and necromancy enthusiast.


http://www.uer.ca/urbanadventure/www.urbanadventure.org/members/catas/13thadr.jpg

Here is another. The tunnels under Hadrians estate.

Beijing's underground city.

In the old days I never ran dungeons and thought most of the published ones read as ridiculously random treasure hoards.
This is one of the things of value I took away from World of Warcraft... the 'dungeons' there are always living places that have an extended presence in the areas surrounding them and lack that random element of old D&D modules... instead there's always a strong story behind what the inhabitants are doing there. The architecture might not always be plausible but it's never just a sprawling maze of rooms without purpose.
They DO have a lot of monsters just standing around... waiting... but there's always the sense that they have a purpose there beyond being killed by PCs.
 
My main homebrew setting is low magic and pretty low on anything that looks like a traditional D&D 'dungeon'... but it does have places that resemble those WOW instances... fortresses and ruined monasteries and cavern systems... old mines where bandits hide their loot.

What I find hilarious about that Cappadochian city image is that it's labeled like a module map.

"Room 11: Five milner stations and the bones of three dead early Christians..."
'I search for traps!'
"Well, the floor over by the north entrance is a little dodgy..."

I do both: weird and unrealistic, and inspired by real stuff.  Sorry for the big picture, but the one at the bottom right for my current campaign is from a real set of underground water tunnels, and frankly I think it looks really cool.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219The layout of almost every dungeon in almost every D&D adventure module ever made makes no sense at all (with the exception of a very few historical-accuracy type adventures, and a few where they were semi-credible cave complexes rather than 'intelligent design').

That is, if you look at real "dungeons", real burial chambers, real tombs, even mines, catacombs or ancient sewers, NONE of them look like the often seemingly-random spattering of corridors, rooms, and multiple levels that you see in a D&D dungeon.  They make no sense even from a construction perspective; and of course, most of the times the ecology of the dungeon makes no sense at all (sometimes this last note is worse than others, like dungeons that have giants or dragons that literally couldn't fit through the door out of the room they're found in, or ancient sealed dungeons unopened for centuries that somehow have contemporary equipment, groups of randomly-placed goblins, etc.).

So how do you handle all this?

Do you just not give a shit, and not address it at all?
Do you create some kind of flimsy justification for it ("a crazy wizard did it. Yes, all of them!")?
Do you actually make some kind of effort to at least try to have your dungeons be internally logical to the setting somehow?

Anyone actually want to try to defend the dungeon with some argument other than "fuck you, it's fun and I don't need to think about it"?

OF COURSE I don't give a shit.

But on the other hand, I've got some reasons.

First: Looking at maps of actual ancient excavations, some of which are already posted upthread, it's pretty obvious that twistiness and randomness are not unrealistic features of dungeons. If anything, fantasy dungeons aren't twisty enough, a feature they share with fantasy towns compared to medieval and ancient towns. It's the compactness and straightness of fantasy dungeons that's unrealistic. Aside from someone's basement, wine cellar, or oubliette, underground excavations are often sprawling and crooked. If you are digging through soft rock and hit either harder rock your Bronze-Age tools can't deal with or a weaker, unstable area, you wind up diverting around it. Tunnels collapse, and you have to dig new routes. And sometimes, you just get a little lost in the inky blackness and your tunnels change direction, or slope up or down unexpectedly.

Second: Although rational design might make sense for smaller projects, megadungeons don't feel right without an element of mystery and irrationality. I buy into the theory of the dungeon as mythic underworld. To my way of thinking, surface dwellers start out making small, one-or-two level excavations, then supernatural forces well up from below and turn it into a sprawling underworld. And I do mean "well up"; I absolutely detest the idea of demon-lords and eldritch gods of evil digging conventional mundane mine shafts up as part of an invasion.

Third: I really don't like the scientific approach to legendary material. I hate biological explanations of a dragon's flaminng breath, I hate applying conventional physics to magic spells, and I hate "dungeon ecology" or an overconcern with architectural limitations. This ties into #2 above, but also comes from wanting to play a fantasy adventure game specifically to reconnect with older, fantastic ways of thinking.

Dragons don't make any sense either...not just the whole "intelligent", and "flying" and "likes gold, even though dragons have no economic system and almost no social system" issues. You've also got the massive size and caloric needs, the huge territories they'd need to cover and somehow survive the armies that would inevitably track them down.

Thing is, you must give a game its premise. So, with D&D, you pretty much have to accept that there are dungeons, and dragons.

That said, if you're criticizing strictly upon layout, then I'd have to disagree anyway. It's *tough* tunneling below ground, and you rather have to work with what you have, or what you immediately need (hey, ever tried playing Dwarf Fortress?)--and unlike building above ground, whatever you dig out, is pretty much dug out forever. You can't just knock the building down and start over.

Now for ecology, yeah, there are some major issues (which is why real world caves generally don't have herds of creatures in them), but I just suck that up and roll the dice already.

They only don't make sense because you're looking at it from a humano-centrically biased PoV. If an Umberhulk, Giant Crab, Hook Horror, Tribe of Gnolls, Gelatinous Slime, and Wight King all decided to live together in a place where they could gather treasure and wait patiently for groups of adventurers to come by every few years, the result would be an underground maze. Dungeons are basically monster co-ops.

Fantasy worlds have all kinds of weird shit.

Dwarfs and elves have different psychology and culture from humans, to say nothing of Mind Flayers, Beholders, Kuo-Toa, Aboleth, etc.

Even more relatable people get resources and power to build whatever they want undreamed ofin our real world. I wouldn't think it unusual for a D&D style fantasy world for some random guy with no idea of architecture getting to build some massive complex to suit his fancy. A mad Wizard did it is the most common variation of this, but it might just as well be a thief who found a genie in a bottle or some sellsword who got a big haul.

Then we have gods, fiends and angels involved, who might demand this or that layout for mystical mojo reasons.

And that is for worlds where our known rules of physics and biology mostly aply. Once we get into places where they are different or suspended (wether one of the more gonzo worlds or placed on another plane of existence) all bets are of.


So basically, flimsy excuses consistent with the internal logic of the setting.


Works well enough for me.

to expand on Gold Roger's post, if someone could create this in real life, then a dungeon isn't so odd

Also, the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose... where a madwoman took her remodeling/home decorating tips from spirits.

I've got no issues with crazy dungeon designs if they fit the setting/story... dream cysts of crazy mages budding off the colon of the underworld... mazes that grow organically and feed on greedy visitors... Piranesi-esque sargasso planes of masonry and wood and statuary that join up at nonsensical angles.

What doesn't make sense is applying real world logic to a world that is not real.

Do we have wizards? Monsters? Dwarves? Not in the D&D sense.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219Do you just not give a shit, and not address it at all?

I'm personally done with investing time in realism that most players never notice. "We just want to play dammit, enough with the prepping!"