Hi, all! I recently began DMing 5E after a very long hiatus from D&D, and have some questions (advance apologies for "Duh!" questions):

-When something mentions "Initiative count 20", what is that referring to?

-Aside from creating healing potions, how else would a good person use an herbalists' kit, mechanically?

-Where in the PHB/DMG is making the aforementioned healing potions?

-Are there rules for upgrading "your grandfather's sword" to make it magical or making your sword magical due solely to you being awesome? If so, where?

So, that's it and thanks in advance!

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-When something mentions "Initiative count 20", what is that referring to?

The something acts or does something as if it has an Initiative of 20. The count refers to the fact that you count down through initiative numbers.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-Aside from creating healing potions, how else would a good person use an herbalists' kit, mechanically?

Identifying herbs, collecting herbs, making herbal drinks.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-Where in the PHB/DMG is making the aforementioned healing potions?

I believe there are loose rules for it in the DMG, though the herbalism kit notes it can be used to make healing potions.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-Are there rules for upgrading "your grandfather's sword" to make it magical or making your sword magical due solely to you being awesome? If so, where?

The DMG has some loose guidelines for making magic items. That should be good for the first.

For the later, nope. Sounds like a set of house rules. Perhaps allow players to re-skin Feats they take as originating from the weapon.

Thanks! Our confusion had to do with the "how" of making said potions, such as what's required/limits it.  I'll look for the herbalists' kit potion bit later tonight (is there a certain section/page I should read?). Also, would it be stepping on something else to allow the herbalists' kit to grant the ability to make anti-toxins and such? A wee sad that you can't create a magic item by your legend, although having that as a boon might work. Each time you take it your wondrous weapon becomes even more wondrous!

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801928A wee sad that you can't create a magic item by your legend, although having that as a boon might work. Each time you take it your wondrous weapon becomes even more wondrous!

Sounds a bit like some of the magic items in Earthdawn... which has an extensive system for items taking on legendary status because of the deeds they've been involved in.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-When something mentions "Initiative count 20", what is that referring to?

I am not sure what you are referring too? I can't find the terms in the PHB or the Basic rules. The only thing I can think of is that one way of dealing with initiative is to start by saying "Anybody have an initiative higher than 20". Resolve them in order, and then start counting down from 20 halting with somebody calls out that is their number.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-Aside from creating healing potions, how else would a good person use an herbalists' kit, mechanically?

-Where in the PHB/DMG is making the aforementioned healing potions?

The short answer

DMG Page 128 and they cost 100 gp to make, and take a caster 4 days to brew and you have to be 3rd level to make them. If you have help you can divided the number of days, 4, by the number of people willing to work on it. If you have three other friends you can make a healing potion in a day.  There is no other formal mechanics in the DMG related to Magic Items Creation.

The long answer

First off you have to understand that in 5e the authors deliberately avoided detailed mechanics except for a few areas. Even in those areas they only wrote as much as they thought was needed to make it useful like the description of the planes. Instead the mechanics for the most part are designed to be the minimal amount needed to be useful with an obvious path for expansion by referee.

The DMG attitude here a baseline, here are options, and here is some basic details. Use it to make D&D your way.

So what do you have in the way of Magic Item Creation? In the DMG on page 128 are some basic guidleines for creating Magic Items.

Magic Items Creation is one of those areas with minimal details. Magic Items are divided into five rarity level ranging from Common to Legendary. Each level has a specific cost ranging from 100 gp for Common items to 500,000 gp for legendary items. Each level rarity has a minimum level that can make ranging from 3rd level for common and uncommon items to 17th for legendary items. Each caster involved in creating a magic item can contribute 25 gp per day worth of work. A solitary 17th level caster can spend 20,000 day or 55 years making a Legendary Item. Two 17th level casters can halve that time.

The price of making a magic item assumes that you are covering the cost of maintaining a modest lifestyle and if you want the character to have a modest lifestyle you can do so at half the daily cost.

And that pretty much it. No kit or skill required other than meeting the minimum level requirement. There not even a class requirement. Per RAW a fighter could craft a +1 sword. Of course they advise that it is perfectly fine to impose additional requirement on the making of items or certain items. It is even fine if you don't want to allow the creation of magic items at all.

So a Healing Potion that does 2d4+4 is a common magic items costing 100 gp to make and taking 4 days to make for a solitary caster.


Page 284 -285

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;801923-Are there rules for upgrading "your grandfather's sword" to make it magical or making your sword magical due solely to you being awesome? If so, where?

Not explicitly but like I said above the authors focused on providing a baseline that is both useful and acts a foundation for extrapolating more detail. In this case what you need use the Magic Item creation guidelines on Page 284 to 285 to figure out what rarity level your grandfather's sword is now. And then what rarity level your grandfather sword will be. Then pay the difference.

Or if the resulting sword is in essence multiple magic items fused together as one object. Then just consider the new effect like a new item. Look up or calculate the rarity as if it was a standalone item and that will tell you the cost and time to modify the original.

For example if you were to make +1 sword into a +2 sword that is a upgrade increasing the rarity level of the weapon. You are increasing it from Uncommon (+1) to Rare (+2). Uncommon items cost 500 gp to make and Rare items cost 5,000 gp to make. So you need to spend 4,500 gps (5,000-500) and spend 180 mage-days to upgrade the sword to +2.

However lets say it is already a +1 sword but you want to make it a Flaming +1 sword. That is an effect that is addition to the +1 bonus. Basically allowing the sword to do +2d6 damage while ablaze. It is a rare effect so you would pay the full cost, 5,000 gp, and have to spend 200 mage days adding it.

The 5e DMG makes it clear that the referee has to use their judgment at every point of the campaign's life from prep to finishing it. It say that right in the intro on page 4 and reinforces it on page 5 when it explains the reason behind the chapters in the Master of Rules section.

So in this case you have to use your judgment and common sense to figure out how to handle item improvement which is not addressed. Likely like older edition of D&D the baseline is straightforward enough it is easy to tack on additional details without worrying about breaking the rest of the game.

It is also similar enough to older editions that you can import the rules from 3e, a classic edition, or an OSR ruleset like ACKS and use it in the place of what they have in there.

In the PHB making a healing potion takes 5 days and costs 25GP. (pg 187)
The Healers kit is required to make a healing potion. (pg 154)

Quote from: Omega;802030In the PHB making a healing potion takes 5 days and costs 25GP. (pg 187)
The Healers kit is required to make a healing potion. (pg 154)

(changed my answer)

The rule on page 187 has to do with the crafting of the items on the equipment list.

While the rule in the DMG has to do with the crafting of Magic Items.

The problem is that Healing Potion is listed on the Equipment List. So either Healing Potion is a deliberate exception to the other common magic items. Or there are two types of Healing Potions.

On a different topic, I realize that the DMG Magic Item creation rules have no prerequisites other than level.  Anybody can make magic items if they have a high enough character level, the time and the money.

Thanks! One thing I find odd is that a basic healing potion costs 100 gp to make but sells for 50 gp, if memory serves. Odd economy, even in a world of wizards and monsters.

The thing that struck me is that you need a caster to make a healing potion (AFAIR), but the herbalists' kit makes no mention of that. The only reason I'm stuck on it is wanting the hermit monk to get use out of his kit without allowing him to drown the party in potions.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;802042Thanks! One thing I find odd is that a basic healing potion costs 100 gp to make but sells for 50 gp, if memory serves. Odd economy, even in a world of wizards and monsters.

It better to consider as two ways of making a healing potion.

One way requires a 3rd level character spending 4 days and 100 gp to make a healing potion.

The other way require proficiency in the Herbalist Kit, 5 days, and 25 gp to make a healing potion.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;802042The thing that struck me is that you need a caster to make a healing potion (AFAIR), but the herbalists' kit makes no mention of that. The only reason I'm stuck on it is wanting the hermit monk to get use out of his kit without allowing him to drown the party in potions.

There is no require in the 5e DMG that the person crafting Magic Items has to be a caster. The only character requirement is that they be X level.

Quote from: estar;802045It better to consider as two ways of making a healing potion.

One way requires a 3rd level character spending 4 days and 100 gp to make a healing potion.

The other way require proficiency in the Herbalist Kit, 5 days, and 25 gp to make a healing potion.



There is no require in the 5e DMG that the person crafting Magic Items has to be a caster. The only character requirement is that they be X level.

Now that's interesting and gives a good reason to be a master craftsman or to allow for the classic trope of the  blacksmith crafting the sword or jeweler the item and having some Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock, Cleric or whatever join in during the process to add the magic if you wanted it that way also.

True there aren't other requirements but if I remember correctly the DMG offered several other factors they could add into their game such as having the formula for crafting the item in order to do it. And any thing that cast spells reuqired you to have the spell and use material components for the days of crafting. Once again  this is if memory serves. Book is at home.

I misspoke on having to be a caster when crafting magic items. I meant that unless you have access to the magic, it can't be placed in an item. That makes sense and it makes sense that a basic healing potion is the exception.

To add, I had an idea for using an herbalists' kit where you could make anti-toxins/venoms. You roll Medicine at the same DC as the affliction and if successful anyone imbibing the concoction gains advantage on resisting the malady. Thoughts?

I love this new edition. Just had to mention that!

Quote from: estar;802045The other way require proficiency in the Herbalist Kit, 5 days, and 25 gp to make a healing potion.

I'm away from my books so would it be impolite to ask where you got the 5 days from, so I may point it out to my friend? Thank you.

I think it should be 10 days.

Downtime rules say you can craft mundane items at 5gp a day. It does only cost 25gp or half the price for the item but I think craft time is based on original retail cost( 50gp for healing)

Since all that is presented in PHB I consider the basic heal potion mundane and not magical despite it being on the magic item list in the DMG listed as common.

Quote from: estar;802036The rule on page 187 has to do with the crafting of the items on the equipment list.

While the rule in the DMG has to do with the crafting of Magic Items.

The problem is that Healing Potion is listed on the Equipment List. So either Healing Potion is a deliberate exception to the other common magic items. Or there are two types of Healing Potions.

I don't see that as a problem. If you have a herbalist around, they can make healing potions (and antitoxins) that sell for 50gp. However, "mundane" crafting can only net you 5gp worth of item per day so it takes a herbalist 10 days per potion. However, the ingredients are basically free* (the herbalist goes and gathers them).

A spell caster who can cast Cure Wounds** can make a healing potion too. It takes them 50gp of ingredients*** but only 2 days since magic items are crafted at 25gp worth of item per day. This is fine if you can't wait the 10 days it will take for the herbalist to make one or if you don't have access to a herbalist.

The herbalist has the advantage that they have less raw material cost (i.e. none); but the spell caster has the advantage that they can make better potions than a simple potion of healing and that they can make them much more quickly.

So I have no problem with both types of potion existing in the same setting.

* Assumption 1: It's not unbalanced for a herbalist to be able to make 5gp per day profit by making potions, since that's in line with the downtime rules for things like bards performing for money (PHB 187).

** Assumption 2: You need to be able to cast whatever spells an item duplicates (DMG 129) so I'm assuming that a potion of healing is effectively duplicating the Cure Wounds spell.

*** Assumption 3: The value of a consumable single-use item is only half that of a normal item of the same rarity (DMG 135). I'm assuming this applies to making items as well as buying/selling them, since otherwise it would be cheaper to buy potions and scrolls than to make them which would be silly.

QuoteOn a different topic, I realize that the DMG Magic Item creation rules have no prerequisites other than level.  Anybody can make magic items if they have a high enough character level, the time and the money.

There is a prerequisite that the person making the item must be of a class that uses spell slots, and that if the item duplicates a particular spell the caster must be able to cast the spell each day while making it (DMG 128).

Also, each type of item has a specific recipe/formula, and having a copy of that is also a prerequisite (also DMG 128).

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;802042Thanks! One thing I find odd is that a basic healing potion costs 100 gp to make but sells for 50 gp, if memory serves. Odd economy, even in a world of wizards and monsters.

As I mentioned above, consumable items only have half the value of non-consumable items. If you assume that applies to the creation as well as the buying/selling of the item it makes more sense.

QuoteThe thing that struck me is that you need a caster to make a healing potion (AFAIR), but the herbalists' kit makes no mention of that. The only reason I'm stuck on it is wanting the hermit monk to get use out of his kit without allowing him to drown the party in potions.

I wouldn't worry about him drowning the party in potions. It still takes him ten days to make each healing potion or antitoxin.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;802079I'm away from my books so would it be impolite to ask where you got the 5 days from, so I may point it out to my friend? Thank you.

I don't know where the 5 day period comes from. By my reading of the PHB the potion is worth 50gp and the crafter takes one day per 5gp in value of what they're making - so it should take 10 days.