Quote from: Will;801319You are still not answering me about 3e. I assume the answer is 'little/none'?

3e has random chargen; 4d6, drop lowest, assign as needed.
3e has encounter design that is totally about predetermining monsters and balancing them around the level of the player characters.

So for 13 years, the published version of D&D, the biggest, most influential roleplaying game in the world was exactly what you are saying is inconsequential.

SWd20 is derived from 3E.  I wouldn't call it "inconsequential," I'd call it "shitty design."

Quote from: Old Geezer;801353Maybe you need to stop playing shitty rules sets.

I don't know what game you're quoting in your above example, but I wouldn't play it.  If random rolls can give you a character that is genuinely useless, the fucking game system needs fixing.

Remember, I'm the guy who thinks Star Wars d20 stinks worse than three feet up Jabba the Hutt's ass.  (Many Bothans died to bring us this information.)  I also explicitly deny that later games are necessarily better than earlier ones.  If your example above is from a real game, and I have no reason to doubt it is, I'll stick with OD&D, thank you.

The example was 3.5e, but should also apply to 4e. I THINK it should also apply to 5e, but I'm not positive: the 'attack bonus' rises much slower, so I think it's easier to hit. Then again, the 5 point difference in damage (which I actually forgot to mention before) is also a factor.

So, yeah, if the example seems terrible to you, don't play anything from 3e on (except OSR/Microlite/other weirdness).

Quote from: Will;801352Old Geezer:
30 years of gaming tells me players and GMs matter... but system has a big impact.


And, for what it's worth, my experiences have lead me to conclude I should avoid the systems where it has a big impact. Not just because of this, but because of other issues -- trying to fine tune encounters to be 'right' for a given party is just annoying.

Absolutely agree.  If you don't like a system, don't play it!  As I've said several times, I hate SWd20, and the whole "encounter rating" thing sucks.

But SWd20 is based off 3E and I played the best even though I had a "gimped" character who had a +1 DEX bonus and no other bonuses.

I also shocked the shit out of people because I didn't piss my pants every time somebody got a potential attack of opportunity on me.  It's called a "calculated risk."

Quote from: Will;801358The example was 3.5e, but should also apply to 4e. I THINK it should also apply to 5e, but I'm not positive: the 'attack bonus' rises much slower, so I think it's easier to hit. Then again, the 5 point difference in damage (which I actually forgot to mention before) is also a factor.

So, yeah, if the example seems terrible to you, don't play anything from 3e on (except OSR/Microlite/other weirdness).

And I don't; I freely admit it.  The fact that my Jedi had one defense against blasters, a different one against physical ranged attacks, another one against physical melee attacks, another one against energy melee attacks, yet ANOTHER one against lightsabers, and yet ANOTHER ANOTHER one against touch attacks, was my first warning.  I don't think I calculated the damn things correctly once in 3 years, due to all the buffs, feats, and skills that influenced them.

And in another instance another player said "When you have a +20 on a 20 sider roll, something is seriously wrong."

Shitty game design is shitty game design.  Just because 3rd edition came after first edition doesn't mean it's not shitty design.

Quote from: Will;801261I disagree.

I actually agree with Will on this. Partly.
However, feeling useless is not the same as being useless. In the last PF game I was in my character was, despite being specifically "built" and intended to kick ass, was vastly overshadowed by the first two, then three, of the other PCs in the realm of beating faces in. So I felt useless in combat. Which sucked, because that was the original point behind that character, something dumb that beats faces so I can socialize with my group while we go dick around on one of the other PC's quests for a flying boat. But, despite feeling useless in that one section of the game, and it was late in the campaign anyways, my character was the focal point of the last part of that campaign. My character could legitimately feel useless because he was fight alongside 3 gods, with a sizable army at his back, and several other gods. So I felt useless a lot, and my character felt useless a lot more, despite being the big mover and shaker.
It is possible to feel a way that is at odds with the actual situation.

AxesnOrcs:
The problem is the 3e-onward design idea:
Modifier = 1/2 x (stat-10)
Add Strength modifier to melee attack chance, and to melee attacks (mod x 1.5 added to damage for two-handed weapons)

This basic design element changes the importance of stats in everything a player does. Want to fast-talk the guard? You need good Charisma and skill, unless the DM specifically makes lower-level challenges for your character to handle.

Now, it's possible to vary up challenge like that. It's a little tricky, but if you know LowStatGuy focuses on some activity that works apart from what everyone else does, then you can tweak things appropriately.


Ooor... you can stick with systems where stats don't have such an immediate impact on everything you can do.

Ooor... you can make sure stats don't end up with disparate results (either point buy or liberal 'those stats suck, try again,' or... something)

Ooor... you can have a goofy game where combat doesn't come up as often and the bar is lower on everything, and you don't sweat it.

Verisimilitude. If you care for it whatsoever, you worry not about things like "balanced encounter" or "equity of player stats".

How many times will the same circular reasoning be done in this thread before we end up with Hitler and gun control?

Quote from: TristramEvans;801257If a player feels useless its because they're acting useless.

Quote from: Will;801362AxesnOrcs:
The problem is the 3e-onward design idea:
Modifier = 1/2 x (stat-10)
Add Strength modifier to melee attack chance, and to melee attacks (mod x 1.5 added to damage for two-handed weapons)

This basic design element changes the importance of stats in everything a player does. Want to fast-talk the guard? You need good Charisma and skill, unless the DM specifically makes lower-level challenges for your character to handle.

Now, it's possible to vary up challenge like that. It's a little tricky, but if you know LowStatGuy focuses on some activity that works apart from what everyone else does, then you can tweak things appropriately.


Ooor... you can stick with systems where stats don't have such an immediate impact on everything you can do.

Ooor... you can make sure stats don't end up with disparate results (either point buy or liberal 'those stats suck, try again,' or... something)

Ooor... you can have a goofy game where combat doesn't come up as often and the bar is lower on everything, and you don't sweat it.

Or you can just wing it. That's how we played 3e when it first came out, and that's how I run Pathfinder now.
Yes stats matter in those games.
Yes stats matter much more than in previous editions of the game.
Yes stats and magic items can make shit get horribly out of hand.

And I'm not really sure what reminding anyone the shorthand for figuring out the bonus or penalty a stat has has any real bearing at hand.

As for fast talking a guard, bluff is opposed by the guard's sense motive, so the rate of success is based on both the guard's stat and ranks in that skill and the PC's stat and ranks in bluff. Even if every, or just that one special guard, had max ranks in Sense Motive, they are still NPCs with NPC stats so might have a +1 from wisdom, giving the PC a roughly equal chance at lying their way past the guard.
The DC for diplomacy improving attitudes is based on the initial attitude, not HD or level or stats of the target.
Only intimidating the guard is primarily based on the level or hd of the guard.
So what exactly does fast talking a guard have to with randomness of stats and CR based encounters?

'Just wing it' was the last option I mentioned.

I was assuming a guard random folks might actually talk to would have a skill in Sense Motive. After all, they are... guards (particularly if you are talking about level 8+, where you are dealing with something other than random conscripts you slap a blazon on)

If I was selecting guards, I'd probably go for guys who are are alert (Perception), and not easily flim-flammed (Sense Motive).

Although you are right in that a guard is likely to be more vulnerable to bluffing past than fighting, all things being equal. So it's a good niche for sub-par stats.

Quote from: Will;801351So, what are folks actual experiences, preferences, games they haven't played?


Given the topic, one game where randomness never bothered me was Call of Cthulhu. For one thing, unfair results seem very emulative of Victorian Horror! For another, Cthulhu eats 1d6 Investigators per round -- when the highs and lows don't matter terribly much, eh, whatever.

Call of Cthulhu isnt (usually) about Victorian horror? Its set in the 1920s and 30s?

Otherwise yeah. I've seen few games where having a big disparity between two players was a kill point.

I have though seen games where you had to be very carefull WHERE you put your points though due to how the system handled stats or character growth.

Shadowrun was one. There are times when Gurps feels like it is that way.

Der, yeah, not Victorian. Still, it's definitely a period of inequity (POLITICS POLITICS) and shit.

Quote from: Will;801367'Just wing it' was the last option I mentioned.

I was assuming a guard random folks might actually talk to would have a skill in Sense Motive. After all, they are... guards (particularly if you are talking about level 8+, where you are dealing with something other than random conscripts you slap a blazon on)

If I was selecting guards, I'd probably go for guys who are are alert (Perception), and not easily flim-flammed (Sense Motive).

Although you are right in that a guard is likely to be more vulnerable to bluffing past than fighting, all things being equal. So it's a good niche for sub-par stats.

Considering neither of those skills are class skills for fighters or warriors, and assuming you just went straight 10s or the PF NPC stat array, the bulk of your guards have only a bonus to those skills equal to their level.
Again, I'm not really sure what this example of the guards has to do with the broader "random stats make no sense in 3e/PF" stance you have adopted. Unless you are rolling up all the stats for the NPCs instead of using one of the stat arrays, which just seems like a lot of extra work, they aren't PCs, and when do you draw the line at this? You going to generate the stats of every owlbear and dragon in the land too?  
Again yes, stats matter. Having an 18-20 in a key stat contributes greatly to the success of certain rolls, more so than level does for a long time. That is a feature of the game.

Quote from: Will;801362This basic design element changes the importance of stats in everything a player does. Want to fast-talk the guard? You need good Charisma and skill, unless the DM specifically makes lower-level challenges for your character to handle.

Now I realize how my Jedi worked so well.  In SW you can use "Force Points" to add a certain number of d6 to any d20 roll.  Adding 3 or 4 d6 to a d20 roll sure makes up for weak stats.

Much like I wasn't afraid to risk an Attack of Opportunity, I wasn't afraid to burn Force Points.  I often was down to 2 or 3 and seldom had more than 6, and the Jedi player with the best stats (nothing less than 16) had over 20 Force points but never used them because he was afraid of "running out."

So yeah, something to boost the odds helps.

True. But you would have been getting that anyhow so you were still kicking ass with a supposedly crippled character.

Quote from: Brad;801363Verisimilitude. If you care for it whatsoever, you worry not about things like "balanced encounter" or "equity of player stats".

How many times will the same circular reasoning be done in this thread before we end up with Hitler and gun control?

It's only a matter of time, I figure.

Hrm.  Hang on -- let me borrow some of my wife's pins, so people can blather on about how many OSR gamers can dance on the heads.