Quote from: Omega;800511Correct. You have a lesser chance with the off-hand attack. But its still another chance if the main hand misses.

You may get less damage (because no damage bonus from your characteristic, unless you have a feat or a class feature that says otherwise), but the chance to hit is the same, isn't it?

Quote from: rawma;800508You can only add the damage on one successful attack per round, but if you get two chances to hit you're more likely to get the bonus damage in that round. That is, if you miss with the first attack but hit with the second, you get the bonus damage on the second attack.

Fair enough but you would have to be using the "adjacent to an ally" trigger as the second attack from hidden wouldn't get advantage as you would no longer be hidden.

Quote from: rawma;800516You may get less damage (because no damage bonus from your characteristic, unless you have a feat or a class feature that says otherwise), but the chance to hit is the same, isn't it?

As I understand it, yes. Attack rolls are usually never messed with unless advantage/disadvantage is in play.

Quote from: rawma;800516You may get less damage (because no damage bonus from your characteristic, unless you have a feat or a class feature that says otherwise), but the chance to hit is the same, isn't it?

oop. True dat. So the off-hand attack has the same to-hit. Even more reason to go with two.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800517Fair enough but you would have to be using the "adjacent to an ally" trigger as the second attack from hidden wouldn't get advantage as you would no longer be hidden.

See my above post but yes you're basically correct. It should just be a second attack no advantage or disadvantage possibly at a negative to the damage roll  IF the attack roll is successful.

Quote from: Marleycat;800512I mistakenly thought you were whining about at-will cantrips I apologize. From my own play experience I have used a combat cantrip ONE time in 2 levels. I do use the non combat ones all the time though.

PCs in my games using them all the time. Also maxing out use of Minor illusion and mending.

Typically, as you yourself pointed out in another post, they use their cantrips for combat, save their toughest slot for another combat spell and the other slots are utility.
We have played for 4 sessions and the party are just reaching third level. They have been in 5 fights in that time, mostly with goblin patrols.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800517Fair enough but you would have to be using the "adjacent to an ally" trigger as the second attack from hidden wouldn't get advantage as you would no longer be hidden.

Some might read the missing attack as not dropping you out of hidden. YMMV.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800522PCs in my games using them all the time. Also maxing out use of Minor illusion and mending.

Typically, as you yourself pointed out in another post, they use their cantrips for combat, save their toughest slot for another combat spell and the other slots are utility.
We have played for 4 sessions and the party are just reaching third level. They have been in 5 fights in that time, mostly with goblin patrols.

Maybe throw a twist like humans in a group that aren't obvious combatants? What do you mean by maxxing out MI and Mending though? Because that tells me another issue is at play then pure combat.

Minor Illusion, and Mending should be used all the time though because those are tricks that seperate the PC's from the regular people but they have their own downsides if used indescrimitably. I'm totally sure either or both are used by any typical High Elf shopkeeper.

Quote from: Omega;800523Some might read the missing attack as not dropping you out of hidden. YMMV.

Nah if you make an attack you are no longer hidden. Just like invisibility back in the day.

Quote from: Marleycat;800524Maybe throw a twist like humans in a group that aren't obvious combatants? What do you mean by maxxing out MI and Mending though? Because that tells me another issue is at play then pure combat.

Minor Illusion, and Mending should be used all the time though because those are tricks that seperate the PC's from the regular people but they have their own downsides if used indescrimitably. I'm totally sure either or both are used by any typical High Elf shopkeeper.

the first part of your comment I can't understand you will need to unpick it for me.

The second part I agree with totally but can't really see any downsides.
the MI has worked really well to confuse enemies in combat as well with orders shouted from behind groups of troops, or magical warriors stepping out of fires.  All in all some interesting applications.

As for mending we are still wondering how far you can push it. I haven't decided yet.

Quote from: rawma;800460You omit scimitar, which pairs nicely with short sword for dual wielding without the Dual Wielder feat, because it's finesse and light and does slashing where short sword does piercing.

Rogues do not have class proficiency with Scimitars. It was omitted on purpose.

Quote from: rawma;800460I guess I'm OK with sneak attacks not being delivered via halberd. Why are you bothered by this? All I can think of:

• It's boringly the same that all rogues have (almost) the same weapons.
• Enemies are going to guess it's a rogue because of the finesse weapons.
• You want to squeeze out an extra point or so of damage on top of the d6 per two levels from sneak attack.

My answers to those objections:

• House rule that any reasonable one handed weapon can be used for sneak attack as if it were Finesse and Light, but only gets d6 damage (or d4 if it's also Thrown). Won't it be boringly the same that all rogues use two weapons to get the best result out of sneak attack?
• Enemies are probably going to see lots of dual wielders with Finesse weapons (Light or not according to Dual Wielder feat) who aren't rogues, because they have much better dexterity bonus than strength (my ranger and my sorcerer, for examples).
• :boohoo:

Wrong assumed question. I don't care how Sneak Attack is delivered. I care that I must make an effort to deliver it. I don't like that it exists at all.

The damage swing is just that beneficial, and readily combat available, that to build remotely against it makes. no. sense.

Have you tinkered with low DEX build permutations already? I have, along with other low stat experiments. There's some real potential in 5e to mitigate just about any stat penalty.

Except for Rogues. It's really hard to fight against that one-two combo of needing high DEX for AC and Sneak Attack favoring finesse or ranged weapons. It's painfully close to 4e's "drop an 18 in this stat by hook or by crook to ride this ride." It's straight up boring.

Try making a DEX mediocre Rogue focused on social skills. Quite doable. Now try to keep them out of harms way without being a social monster, either before combat (positioning via Stealth, Acrobatics, Athletics, etc.), or during (armor AC, cover, range, higher DPR to end fights earlier, etc.). You rapidly end up returning to the same answer.

One of the few I could come up with was high STR, low DEX, Mt. Dwarf who used Darts, Athletics to Shove, L. Swds to crit Prone targets, caltrop/ball bearing floor control, darkvision w/ nets... etc.

It gets quite oblique. And leaves little interpretation for basic tropes, like Thugs with clubs, or Bandit King with Longsword, Old Apothecary Poisoner (wish Blowguns had finesse), and so on. And a lot of that could still be permissible if Sneak Attack didn't exists.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800503You can't use dual wield on sneak attacks. You can only make 1 sneak attack per turn.
Also the sneak attack damage doesn't vary by weapon unlike in early editions which means that you don't need to worry so much about the weapon to get the same bonus out of the sneak attack. Sneak attack with a d4 knife or a d8 rapier and .... the bonus is still d6

Quote from: rawma;800508You can only add the damage on one successful attack per round, but if you get two chances to hit you're more likely to get the bonus damage in that round. That is, if you miss with the first attack but hit with the second, you get the bonus damage on the second attack.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800517Fair enough but you would have to be using the "adjacent to an ally" trigger as the second attack from hidden wouldn't get advantage as you would no longer be hidden.

Quote from: Marleycat;800521See my above post but yes you're basically correct. It should just be a second attack no advantage or disadvantage possibly at a negative to the damage roll  IF the attack roll is successful.

Quote from: Omega;800523Some might read the missing attack as not dropping you out of hidden. YMMV.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800529Nah if you make an attack you are no longer hidden. Just like invisibility back in the day.

*sigh* :banghead:

Have you all forgotten Appendix: Conditions already? Do I have to quote that, too?

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Opaopajr;800540Rogues do not have class proficiency with Scimitars. It was omitted on purpose.



Wrong assumed question. I don't care how Sneak Attack is delivered. I care that I must make an effort to deliver it. I don't like that it exists at all.

The damage swing is just that beneficial, and readily combat available, that to build remotely against it makes. no. sense.

Have you tinkered with low DEX build permutations already? I have, along with other low stat experiments. There's some real potential in 5e to mitigate just about any stat penalty.

Except for Rogues. It's really hard to fight against that one-two combo of needing high DEX for AC and Sneak Attack favoring finesse or ranged weapons. It's painfully close to 4e's "drop an 18 in this stat by hook or by crook to ride this ride." It's straight up boring.

Try making a DEX mediocre Rogue focused on social skills. Quite doable. Now try to keep them out of harms way without being a social monster, either before combat (positioning via Stealth, Acrobatics, Athletics, etc.), or during (armor AC, cover, range, higher DPR to end fights earlier, etc.). You rapidly end up returning to the same answer.

One of the few I could come up with was high STR, low DEX, Mt. Dwarf who used Darts, Athletics to Shove, L. Swds to crit Prone targets, caltrop/ball bearing floor control, darkvision w/ nets... etc.

It gets quite oblique. And leaves little interpretation for basic tropes, like Thugs with clubs, or Bandit King with Longsword, Old Apothecary Poisoner (wish Blowguns had finesse), and so on. And a lot of that could still be permissible if Sneak Attack didn't exists.

Finese weapons can base off STR or DEX.
Haven't tried it as I have zero interest but a grappler rogue could get advantage on all attacks post grapple and so have guarenteed SA on all hits.

Also not sure why you can't have a rogue poisoner with a blowpipe, as its a ranged weapon so you would get sneak attack with ranged weapons so finese is immaterial.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800542*sigh* :banghead:

Have you all forgotten Appendix: Conditions already? Do I have to quote that, too?

:rolleyes:

Actually page 195 at the end of "Unseen attackers and Targets" spells it out. The first attack, hit or miss, drops you out of hidden.

Quote from: Marleycat;800501You ignorant fucks act like magic users get EVERY possible cantrip when in fact they get 3-5 total and likely because of that probably take 1-2 combat cantrips by 20th level unless they take a feat mostly useless to them or another feat that requires said cantrip to have an attack roll (extremely limited choices there and even more useless unless you're an Evoker, Sorcerer or Warlock).

I'm running two 5e games at the moment. One has reached 4th level and the other has reached 7th level.

Party 1 (7th level) = Fighter (Champion), Rogue (Thief), Druid (Land), Bard (Valor), Wizard (Evoker)

Party 2 (4th level) = Cleric (Storm), Rogue (Assassin), Warlock (Fey Chain), Sorcerer (Wild), Monk (Fist)

Between the two parties I don't think any of the magic using types have gone for more than two offensive cantrips.

The druid has Produce Flame, but tends to use a sling instead.

The bard liked her vicious mockery at lower level, but now she gets two attacks per round she uses weapons more often than combat spells (she's taken mostly healing spells anyway - she likes being the party buffer/healer).

The wizard has fire bolt, and used it at lower level when she ran out of spells, but now she's 7th level she doesn't get to that stage very often unless things are going badly wrong.

The cleric tends to prefer melee, and I don't think she's ever used a combat cantrip. In fact I can't even remember whether or not she has any.

The warlock uses Eldritch Blast (obviously), but hasn't taken any invocations that boost it. He's not a very combat-oriented character, having taken mostly utility spells and invocations, but with his naturally invisible familiar he's very useful to the party anyway and no-one minds his relative lack of combat ability.

The sorcerer uses Chill Touch a lot against minor things when she doesn't think it's worth getting out the big guns (and risking Wild Magic rolls).

So none of them use many cantrips and they certainly don't overshadow the non-spellcasters in combat. The champion fighter in particular is a complete beast in a fight (and the monk is great at moving around and controlling the battlefield). The two rogues hold their own too, and the bard and cleric both fight rather than casting most of the time.

White Room shenanigans might favour cantrip-using casters (slightly), but I'm just not seeing it at all in actual play. The casters have more interesting things to do than spam cantrips all the time.

QuoteViscous Mockery

That's not a bad typo.

My daughter (age 10, and playing the bard in the first party) misread the cantrip's name at first and thought it was "Vicious Monkey". My group have called it that ever since, and we joke that the damage is actually because you fling a vicious monkey at your enemy's face.