Quote from: Omega;799381Advantage only works on things like to hit rolls.

Great Weapon Fighting is indeed take second roll. Even if it is less.

It is a pretty good track too as usually you are going to roll better.

A single weapon fighter, say going Duelling, will be doing pretty good too, moreso if you have a strength bonus, (or DEX if finesse).

Longsword for example as it works with both.
Great Weapon is 1d8, reroll 1-2 and take that. You have a 25% chance per attack of it triggering I believe.
Duelling is 1d8+2. This is constant.

With a 2d6 weapon like the Greatsword as someone noted above, Great Weapon gets a bit better as you have a slightly higher chance of the effect triggering, but a slightly lower chance of bettering.

They even out in the long run. Its more a choice of style. Gamble vs constant.

well advantage on works on to hit saves etc because they haven't extended it anywhere else The mechanic is perfectly reusable.

If you look at my numbers on advantage for GWF you get a boost more comparable to the Duelist benefit.

Again from our game when teh goblins attacked the cart there were 2 PCs still on it. The paladin which GFW and a Glaive and a dex based duelist fighter (he is a professional duelist). Over 4 rounds the Paladin's GFW only kicked in once when he hit and got a 1 and rerolled. The duelist got +2 damage on three hits.
Now part of that is that Glaive is probably a suboptimal choice. Although the reach was useful in this corner case. But the duelist style certainly felt a lot more useful to the players.
I think advantage will make GWF very tough but then no shield, no off hand actions etc and the +2 to average damage is a good match for the duelist but its still mechanically distinct.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799371So as written the duelist option improves your damage by the highest amount but the great sword looks better. I do worry it relies on a quirk of rules "re-roll a dice".

Greatweapon Fighting has alot of quirks. Note that it says two-handed, but later says two-handed or versatile. So yes, you reroll both dice if both rolled 1-2. I think the wording was meant to prevent someone from rerolling both dice when only one triggered.

Quote from: Omega;799383Greatweapon Fighting has alot of quirks. Note that it says two-handed, but later says two-handed or versatile. So yes, you reroll both dice if both rolled 1-2. I think the wording was meant to prevent someone from rerolling both dice when only one triggered.

Yes. The issues comes when you have varied the dice to make a greatsword and a great axe different (2d6 vs d12) but in an almost CCG like rules move the text says a dice.
I think advantage woudl be more fun to play through as the issue the guys had was that the effect of GWF doesn't kick in very often with some weapons (1 time in 5 on the glaive) and so it feels a bit weak.
I also think that any effect that has a very marked difference because of the dice type used for the damage (GWF with a 2d6 Great Sword as opposed to a 1d12 great axe) tends to move us to more system mastery position.

I'm with jibba on that one: I'm just gonna house rule it to be rolled like Advantage. One less rule to keep track of (I just tell the player that they get advantage on damage rolls).

Well, you do get the chance to take Great Weapon Master with 2-handed weapons, if you're allowing Feats.

I've been studying GWF for my maul-wielding Paladin. The style benefit definitely seems to be reroll all dice that roll 1-2, but must keep the reroll. I'm a bit concerned that this may be weaker than sword & board for our clericless party - we have a Bard plus two Paladins, it looks like. It seems balanced vs duellist style, but perhaps not so well balanced vs raising AC with a shield.

Quote from: One Horse Town;799400Well, you do get the chance to take Great Weapon Master with 2-handed weapons, if you're allowing Feats.

Yes but you don't need GWF to get the mastery feat. It doesn't have any prerequisites.
Also perhaps oddly one of the two GW mastery effects doesn't require a great weapon but applied to any weapon. basically if you attack with any melee weapon and get a crit or drop it to zero hp you get a bonus attack action.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799405Also perhaps oddly one of the two GW mastery effects doesn't require a great weapon but applied to any weapon. basically if you attack with any melee weapon and get a crit or drop it to zero hp you get a bonus attack action.

Huh, didn't notice that. Just presumed it was only for 2h weapons. Maybe it'll get an errata.

I also agree that Advantage/disadvantage could get rolled out for any dice-roll. Not sure why they didn't do that to be honest.

Trigger Warning: Math and discussion of "elegance"

http://anydice.com/program/4beb

By the way, here is the math of if you replace the reroll 1/2s with the advantage rules. Pike and Greataxe get a boost (actually making Greataxe the best average weapon damage to use) while the Greatsword stays nearly exatly the same.

Personally, I find it might be a slightly more elegant solution, except that rolling the best of 2 rolls of 2d6 can be a lot wonky. With the one dice one you can just roll 2 dice, pick the best.

To keep the whole roll all at once thing, highest 2 of 3d6 on the Greatsword is about on par with highest 1 of 2d12.

So if the rule was changed to: Add one die of appropriate type, keep the number you would originally roll, it would probably be the fastest way to roll, and therefore the most elegant, in my opinion.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;799412Trigger Warning: Math and discussion of "elegance"

G'AH!

Quote from: Emperor Norton;799412So if the rule was changed to: Add one die of appropriate type, keep the number you would originally roll, it would probably be the fastest way to roll, and therefore the most elegant, in my opinion.

Phew! The mysterious and esoteric art of Maths has revealed an elegant solution. Thanks Emperor! That actually works for me.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;799412Trigger Warning: Math and discussion of "elegance"

http://anydice.com/program/4beb

By the way, here is the math of if you replace the reroll 1/2s with the advantage rules. Pike and Greataxe get a boost (actually making Greataxe the best average weapon damage to use) while the Greatsword stays nearly exatly the same.

Personally, I find it might be a slightly more elegant solution, except that rolling the best of 2 rolls of 2d6 can be a lot wonky. With the one dice one you can just roll 2 dice, pick the best.

To keep the whole roll all at once thing, highest 2 of 3d6 on the Greatsword is about on par with highest 1 of 2d12.

So if the rule was changed to: Add one die of appropriate type, keep the number you would originally roll, it would probably be the fastest way to roll, and therefore the most elegant, in my opinion.

Yeah I did the numbers to and posted the result up thread.

the interesting thing to me is it feels like reroll 1n2s doesn't come into play so when the guys are actually rolling it kind of fizzles where as advantage would be always rolled so always feel relevant but adds very little time to the process. I would also do a great sword as roll 3 keep highest 2

Now it might all get a little wonky if we get to criticals and extra damage dice as I don't think you would want to extend to additional damage dice of any type.

More math to simplify rolls. I split it into the weapons cause it was getting a little bit difficult to read.

Using the Style with the houserule of "add one die, keep the original amount of dice" and having the critical rule happen BEFORE the style rule, you end up with this:

http://anydice.com/program/4bed Greatsword

http://anydice.com/program/4bee Greataxe

http://anydice.com/program/4bef Pike

Averages:
Style fighter RAW with Greatsword, 8.33 on normal hit, 16.67 on crit
Style fighter RAW with Greataxe, 7.33 on normal hit, 14.67 on crit
Style fighter RAW with Pike, 6.3 on normal hit, 12.6 on crit

Style fighter HR with Greatsword, 8.46 on normal hit, 15.93 on crit
Style fighter HR with Greataxe, 8.49 on normal hit, 15.98 on crit
Style fighter HR with Pike, 7.15 on normal hit, 13.48 on crit

Conclusion: Applying both house rules allows you to always use one roll. The math of this causes the Greatsword to be mostly the same, slightly less on crits, while the Greataxe is brought up to on par with the Greatsword, making it not as much of a chump choice. The Pike is also given a slight boost.

Overall, not enough deviation to really change the feel of the game in my opinion.

Think what you want troll. I would put you on ignore but  it's too much effort for too small of reward.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799379Dude the text reads -

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. The weapon must have a two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

You  do not take the higher roll you MUST use the new roll so stop wasting everyone's time and sit your arse back down etc ....

That has NOTHING to do with Advantage that is a completely different mechanic.

Aaaah, yeah, I was confused, jibbajabba, because you said 'Advantage' and the rule you are discussing has absolutely nothing to do with Advantage. At all.

You take highest when you have Advantage, but that only applies to 'to hit' rolls, not damage.

I apologize for the venom earlier, but MAN you are confusing to talk to.