I know I am not really allowed to ask questions about 5e as it is quickly becoming sacred text equivalent to one of Gary's shopping lists or a note he once wrote on the back of a pizza menu... nevertheless I will push on regardless.

The weapon style options.

The great weapon style gives you the option to reroll the damage dice but you must take the new roll even if its less.

The Single handed style gives you +2 damage.

This basically equates to ...

1d10 if you don't like it reroll.
1d8 +2.

there are loads of situational benefits for a one handed weapon. Ease of use, space, free hand can be used for a shield (?) or anything non-weapony, like a torch, or to cast spells etc.

On paper the one handed weapon option looks far stronger.

I was thinking of either reversing them or making the 2 handed weapon style out and out advantage.

I think reversing is the better option and then allow the environment contain the two handed specialist.

Opinions, experience?

The Great Weapon specialist really shines with multiple die weapons (i.e. Greatsword, Maul). 2d6 (average 7) are already better than 1d10 (average 5.5) - and without having the time now to run the entire stochastics, I'd claim that a 2d6 weapon with re-rolls on 1-2 on either die still is better than 1d10+2 on average.
And especially for fighters with their multiple attacks, the gap widens even more as the levels progress.

The choice between single-handed weapons and great weapons is essentially the choice if you want to be "tank" with sword&board (especially with magical shields later, which can become a HUGE factor with bounded accuracy) that can hold its ground longer without needing that much HP upkeep, of if you want to be the "damage-dealer" that wears down the enemy HP quicker. A large part in that decision will also be party composition - with a life cleric, paladin and bard HP upkeep is less of a deal, while in a party with a warlock, an evocation wizard and a rogue damage output is already very good and HP attrition for the front-line is a concern and weakpoint.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799309I know I am not really allowed to ask questions about 5e as it is quickly becoming sacred text equivalent to one of Gary's shopping lists or a note he once wrote on the back of a pizza menu...

OK, stop.  Just please stop.  The criticism you got wasn't because people who disagreed with you think 5e is some holy writ.  It's because in those other threads, you went on rants and complaints about things that were flat out wrong, and people just told you to either play the game, or at least get familiar with the rules before you start complaining.

This victim complex thing is weak sauce, man.

Quote from: Skyrock;799312The Great Weapon specialist really shines with multiple die weapons (i.e. Greatsword, Maul). 2d6 (average 7) are already better than 1d10 (average 5.5) - and without having the time now to run the entire stochastics, I'd claim that a 2d6 weapon with re-rolls on 1-2 on either die still is better than 1d10+2 on average.
And especially for fighters with their multiple attacks, the gap widens even more as the levels progress.

The choice between single-handed weapons and great weapons is essentially the choice if you want to be "tank" with sword&board (especially with magical shields later, which can become a HUGE factor with bounded accuracy) that can hold its ground longer without needing that much HP upkeep, of if you want to be the "damage-dealer" that wears down the enemy HP quicker. A large part in that decision will also be party composition - with a life cleric, paladin and bard HP upkeep is less of a deal, while in a party with a warlock, an evocation wizard and a rogue damage output is already very good and HP attrition for the front-line is a concern and weakpoint.

For us two handed weapons back in the day were generally limited by space more than anything. I guess because we were generally city based two handed swords and halberds were just not practical.

On the bounded accuracy deal AC numbers stay flat right and attack numbers increase slower but still increase so we predict a guy at say 11th level will be attacking at +4 + Stat so a +8 to hit will be fairly common and we will be looking at an ac of say 19 as towards the top end (to make the maths easier as its a 50% chance to hit then). With damage numbers being so high but the HP numbers for classes being fairly similar to earleir editions (an 11th level fighter will prolly have 66 +(CON x 11) ) is there any evidence that damge growth more than outgrows HP and AC?

That was very confused when I read it back.

What I am asking is as damage is much higher than old editions, ACs are lower but HPs are roughly equivalent do we expect Damage to dominate as it can become so overwhelming?
I have seen examples of say a barbarian dealling 2d6+8 +2d6 on each strike with 3 strikes at 11th level so that sounds like its an average damage of say 33 HP a round (average 22 per hit with a 50% chance of hitting from 3 attacks)  so a fighter of the same level could easily drop in 2 or 3 rounds and if we include crits or similar less still.  
This is very different to older editions

1d8+2 averages 6.5
2d6 reroll 1-2s once averages 8.33.
1d12 reroll 1-2s once averages 7.33
1d10 reroll 1-2s once averages 6.3

The only one that does less damage is using like a pike, but that also has reach.

(I'm 100% sure on the 2d6 one. I'm fairly sure I got the other two right).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7993311d8+2 averages 6.5
2d6 reroll 1-2s once averages 8.33.
1d12 reroll 1-2s once averages 7.33
1d10 reroll 1-2s once averages 6.3

The only one that does less damage is using like a pike, but that also has reach.

(I'm 100% sure on the 2d6 one. I'm fairly sure I got the other two right).

I never said d10+2 I said d8+2

Are you numbers using advantage as I think the rules says you must use the second number not take the highest (just checking)

Quote from: jibbajibba;799332I never said d10+2 I said d8+2

Are you numbers using advantage as I think the rules says you must use the second number not take the highest (just checking)

I edited that back out because I noticed it was someone else mentioned 1d10+2

I basically used anydice and created a die that had 18 sides. 1-6 once, then 3-6 three times. Basically, it has a 1/3 chance of being a regular d6 (the 1-6 once, being when it originally lands on a 1 or 2), then an addition 1/6th chance each for 3-6 (since 18/6 = 3, 3 additional permeations of each).

Then I did the same for the other two.

http://anydice.com/program/4be4

Damage shouldn't outpace AC or HP given without magic items ability bonuses are capped at +5(+7) for a 20th level Barbarian. Magic seems to be capped at +3 so even at 20th level a Barbarian would be +6+7+3(+16) to hit and 2d6+7+3 damage per hit (2x per round). Even at total maximum without certain exceptions like Rage etc. The Fighter with the same weapon does a bit more though if speced out though of course. The Barbarian and Paladin are better at spiking in trade.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799332I never said d10+2 I said d8+2

Are you numbers using advantage as I think the rules says you must use the second number not take the highest (just checking)

You take the highest.

Quote from: Marleycat;799353You take the highest.

Um ... don't think so.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;799336I edited that back out because I noticed it was someone else mentioned 1d10+2

I basically used anydice and created a die that had 18 sides. 1-6 once, then 3-6 three times. Basically, it has a 1/3 chance of being a regular d6 (the 1-6 once, being when it originally lands on a 1 or 2), then an addition 1/6th chance each for 3-6 (since 18/6 = 3, 3 additional permeations of each).

Then I did the same for the other two.

http://anydice.com/program/4be4

Yeah that all makes sense and the math looks good

So in effect two handed weapon really works better with 2 dice rather than one big dice
So a great sword 2d6 is going to improve more than a great ax 1d12 ?

that looks right I think

Long Sword (d8) w/o and with "Duelist" =  4.5 and 6.5
Great Axe (d12) w/o and with "Great Weapon Fighting" = 6.5 and 7.33
Great Sword (2d6) w/o and with "Great Weapon Fighting" = 7 and 8.33

So as written the duelist option improves your damage by the highest amount but the great sword looks better. I do worry it relies on a quirk of rules "re-roll a dice".

If you made the GFW advange that would go to

Great Axe (d12) w/o and with "Great Weapon Fighting" = 6.5 and  8.5 (ac 8.49)
Great Sword (2d6) w/o and with "Great Weapon Fighting" = 7 and 8.5 (ac8.46)

If you did a full switch then
Long Sword (d8) w/o and with "advantage" =  4.5 and 5.8
Great Axe (d12) w/o and with "+2" = 6.5 and 8.5 (max now 14)
Great Sword (2d6) w/o and with "+2" = 7 and 9 (max now 14)

So I think giving 2 handed weapons advantage looks like the best bet.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799366Um ... don't think so.

Dude. Wtf?

Stop right now and at least sit your ass down and read the basic rules front to back, or you are wasting everyone's time.

Quote from: Will;799376Dude. Wtf?

Stop right now and at least sit your ass down and read the basic rules front to back, or you are wasting everyone's time.

Dude the text reads -

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. The weapon must have a two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

You  do not take the higher roll you MUST use the new roll so stop wasting everyone's time and sit your arse back down etc ....

Quote from: Will;799376Dude. Wtf?

Stop right now and at least sit your ass down and read the basic rules front to back, or you are wasting everyone's time.

Actually, he was right. With great weapon fighting style you reroll 1 and 2 and keep the second result, not the highest. (And Emperor Norton averages accord with this way of rolling).


It must be noted that with critical hits the bonus of great weapon fighting style get more relevant while the dueling bonus stay flat.

Advantage only works on things like to hit rolls.

Great Weapon Fighting is indeed take second roll. Even if it is less.

It is a pretty good track too as usually you are going to roll better.

A single weapon fighter, say going Duelling, will be doing pretty good too, moreso if you have a strength bonus, (or DEX if finesse).

Longsword for example as it works with both.
Great Weapon is 1d8, reroll 1-2 and take that. You have a 25% chance per attack of it triggering I believe.
Duelling is 1d8+2. This is constant.

With a 2d6 weapon like the Greatsword as someone noted above, Great Weapon gets a bit better as you have a slightly higher chance of the effect triggering, but a slightly lower chance of bettering.

They even out in the long run. Its more a choice of style. Gamble vs constant.