http://press.gamergate.me/dossier/

A very good, precise treatment over ethics in video game journalism, in Wiki format.

Truly ethical video game reviews:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ethical-video-game-reviews-post-gamergate-world/

Quote from: Will;798865Truly ethical video game reviews:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ethical-video-game-reviews-post-gamergate-world/

I get what he's trying to do, I just don't find the joke funny.

Have some Objective Game Reviews in return!

Quote from: Ladybird;798866I get what he's trying to do, I just don't find the joke funny.

That sums up the entirety of Cracked.com, the last several years.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798847See, this is what I'm talking about.  You were the one to post a misogynistic post, and rather than own up to it, you're painting me as the one who fucked up?

Man up dude, and stop being such an asshole.

It wasn't misogynistic. Asshole.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;798792I see a box closing in around male sexuality. I DO believe it's a box that needed to close in a bit. BUT, as it's restricting jokes, art, and even job opportunities (the increasing assumption/fear that any male who wants to work with kids is a predator), we probably need to question the process sometimes. The problem is, simply questioning the process as a male gets you lumped in with the vicious pigs and predators, and that's a very powerful charge right now. I'm still deeply uncomfortable posting about these thoughts as a result (wondering, "Am I the bad guy?"), but I've been thinking them for a long time, and I'm clearly not the only one.

I find this news story about the comet lander relevant:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt

I would never wear a shirt like that, but I didn't think it was that bad. I'd certainly feel weird telling someone not to wear it. Again that sneaking thought, "Am I part of the problem?"

Where is this all going? As a straight male I feel like I'm basically waiting for some segments of feminism to speak up on my behalf. They have done so in the past, although with GG and stories like this shirt business we've now come to the point where even they are being label-and-dismissed as "misogynist feminists", whatever that means, so I don't know if that will even work.

I guess I'll just keep following my survival guidelines outside of this website:
- Never discuss gender issues
- Leave the space when gender issues that could become heated enter
- Never say anything about a woman's appearance, positive or negative
- Do not be seen publicly interacting with material where attractive female forms are too prominently featured

Normally I like to just edit a quote down to size, rather than force everyone to read the whole thing again in the same thread, but this post is so unutterably depressing in its entirety that I can't strip anything from it without softening the blow.

Likewise, I pretend to be a reasonably eloquent fellow, but in this case I have just, the other day, been exposed to someone who said it far, far better than I could.

Quote from: Synova from, I believe Sarah Hoyt's blogSynova:

Some of the comments by people who had been subject to the full treatment just made me want to cry. I didn't think it was funny because the guilty parties and enablers aren't the ones who are hurt. Yes, we can scoff at Scalzi when he makes a rational counter-argument and is made, ultimately, to retract and abase himself and agree in public and start proselytizing in public that no... you really can't trust your own brain and if something seems wrong to you or you feel like defending yourself it is simply proof that you're guilty.

But there were people who reported rather severe PTSD type reactions to even sitting down at a keyboard to write because they were so terrified of offending... again. Because *rationally* they'd done nothing wrong the first time, but they were forced to an irrational acceptance of their guilt. So now they've "accepted their privilege" and "checked it" and confessed and repented (they could come to the Dark Side and be welcomed, but they don't know that, and have been taught that the Dark Side is evil, and that's why shunning is so very evil within closed communities... being exiled is a horrific punishment) but since they had NO IDEA how they could have done something wrong in the first place, they also have no idea how to avoid it the next time.

Imagine doing this to a child.

The kid is walking through a room doing nothing much and suddenly POW... and then you tell the kid... well that was YOUR fault. You screwed up. You stepped on that spot on the floor.

So the kid looks at the spot and it looks like every other spot. But the kid is told that, no, the fact that she can't even SEE the spot is what the problem is. You can't SEE the spot... that's why it is YOUR fault. Also, a good child will try to learn. You're a good child, aren't you?

So the kid says, yes... it was my fault. I could not SEE the spot. Not seeing the spot makes this my fault.

Afterward, it's still impossible to see the spots, and walking across the room becomes fraught with danger. Sitting down at the keyboard gives this very "good" person the shakes and panic attacks... where are the spots? She still can't see the spots but she MUST agree and believe that those spots exist.

I have a LOT of sympathy for those who were hurt, just like I have sympathy for any abused person.

You, Shipyard Locked, demonstrated clearly in your post that you are the abused child in Synova's example. I pity you.   You have accepted your guilt, internalized your privilege, and yet you still fear that next blow.

You, along with Dr. Matt Taylor have participated in the Auto da fe, and merely await your sentences.  I weep bitter tears for man, and how he has fallen.

Oh the #shirtstorm shit.  That man in that t-shirt did a lot more good for humanity, than that bitchy reporter could ever fucking do.  Who here was actually landed a real spacecraft on a moving comet?  No one except for that man.  His actions alone had push the human race forward in the grand scheme of things and yet all the attentions go towards that t-shirt which frankly I seen worst t-shirts.

I seen t-shirts with full blown nudity and sexual positions in high school.  The kid that worn that t-shirt was told to cover it up and that was it.  This t-shirt on that guy who made a once in life time achievement that no one else could top had fully dress women that just happen to look attractive.  Ironicly enough it was made by a woman.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798833the key is to start holding ourselves (like what you did above) and "our side" (like the folks who called out s'mon) accountable.  It doesn't do any good to chastise the "other" side, because all it seems to do is rally them and circle the wagons.

Remember this comment, Sacrosanct?
Think about it when you re-read this:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798847See, this is what I'm talking about.  You were the one to post a misogynistic post, and rather than own up to it, you're painting me as the one who fucked up?

Man up dude, and stop being such an asshole.

Quote from: S'mon;798874It wasn't misogynistic. Asshole.

No matter whether you see S'mon as on your side or the other, he do not see what he did as misogynistic.
It seems also that if you only try to get him to admit that it was misogynistic, he will just cling to that it wasn't, perhaps worse than Will stuck to that GamerGate is misogynistic.

Now, you probably are more used to S'mon than I am, but I did ask him if he perhaps ran a bit too far with the joke you started, and he admitted that possibility, perhaps because I did not claim that doing so was misogynistic.
And no, running to far with a joke is not automatically misogynistic.

(Shifting away from addressing Sacrosanct into a general "you" here.)

Now the question is if his extension of said joke is misogynistic or not, and here we come to a piece of nasty reasoning.
One.
It is, according to some feministic views.
Two.
Outside of those views, to a lot of others, it isn't.

So who is correct?
It is the all-too-often case of both and neither, as it depends on the viewpoint, who uses it, and why.

But, Snowman is also right, in this case it does not matter, as it hurts GamerGate by giving the ... "Feminists" (the extremists) the proof they need that GamerGate is Misogynistic.
However, a really extreme "feminist" could even see Sacrosanct's initial joke as Misogynist.
Think of that.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Synova from, I believe Sarah Hoyt's blog
Synova:

Some of the comments by people who had been subject to the full treatment just made me want to cry. I didn't think it was funny because the guilty parties and enablers aren't the ones who are hurt. Yes, we can scoff at Scalzi when he makes a rational counter-argument and is made, ultimately, to retract and abase himself and agree in public and start proselytizing in public that no... you really can't trust your own brain and if something seems wrong to you or you feel like defending yourself it is simply proof that you're guilty.

But there were people who reported rather severe PTSD type reactions to even sitting down at a keyboard to write because they were so terrified of offending... again. Because *rationally* they'd done nothing wrong the first time, but they were forced to an irrational acceptance of their guilt. So now they've "accepted their privilege" and "checked it" and confessed and repented (they could come to the Dark Side and be welcomed, but they don't know that, and have been taught that the Dark Side is evil, and that's why shunning is so very evil within closed communities... being exiled is a horrific punishment) but since they had NO IDEA how they could have done something wrong in the first place, they also have no idea how to avoid it the next time.

Imagine doing this to a child.

The kid is walking through a room doing nothing much and suddenly POW... and then you tell the kid... well that was YOUR fault. You screwed up. You stepped on that spot on the floor.

So the kid looks at the spot and it looks like every other spot. But the kid is told that, no, the fact that she can't even SEE the spot is what the problem is. You can't SEE the spot... that's why it is YOUR fault. Also, a good child will try to learn. You're a good child, aren't you?

So the kid says, yes... it was my fault. I could not SEE the spot. Not seeing the spot makes this my fault.

Afterward, it's still impossible to see the spots, and walking across the room becomes fraught with danger. Sitting down at the keyboard gives this very "good" person the shakes and panic attacks... where are the spots? She still can't see the spots but she MUST agree and believe that those spots exist.

I have a LOT of sympathy for those who were hurt, just like I have sympathy for any abused person.

Quote from: Spike;798886You, Shipyard Locked, demonstrated clearly in your post that you are the abused child in Synova's example. I pity you.   You have accepted your guilt, internalized your privilege, and yet you still fear that next blow.

You, along with Dr. Matt Taylor have participated in the Auto da fe, and merely await your sentences.  I weep bitter tears for man, and how he has fallen.

This MUST be reposted.

By the definition of what misogyny is, what he did was misogynistic.  That's not really up for debate because that's what that word means.  Cut and dry.  You can't start ignoring the definition of what words mean when they don't fit your agenda, because otherwise that makes you (general you) an apologist.

And I don't really give a shit if he admits it or not.  THat's not the point of what I said that you quoted.  The point was that people on "his side" (i.e. pro GG) should and did, call him out on it.  And that's what I was getting at.  That people need to start holding the idiots on their own side accountable.

So, considering my two above posts ....
We're caught between a rock and a hard place.
Well.
I happen to like rock, both as music, and as a firm ground to stand on.
Yup.
I twist the perspective, but that is me.
I realized a long time ago, that being flawed is not the worst thing.
Also, seeming bad do not mean that one is bad nor worse.

Jokes?
Jokes are jokes and should be treated as such, even if they are bad.
Your sentiments and opinions remains the same.
Someone calls you misogynist and you know you don't hate women?
Say you are not, and continue as before.
Or just ignore it, and continue as before.

Do like you did when I once accused you of being racist through the orc alignment debate:
Prove that the accusers are wrong through what you do.
Sure, be prepared for being seen as bad ones, but still, let your actions speak for you, and do not bend over backwards for anyone.

.....Sheesh, sometimes I really go preachin' ...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798892By the definition of what misogyny is, what he did was misogynistic.  That's not really up for debate because that's what that word means.  Cut and dry.  You can't start ignoring the definition of what words mean when they don't fit your agenda, because otherwise that makes you (general you) an apologist.

And I don't really give a shit if he admits it or not.  THat's not the point of what I said that you quoted.  The point was that people on "his side" (i.e. pro GG) should and did, call him out on it.  And that's what I was getting at.  That people need to start holding the idiots on their own side accountable.

You fail to notice that an extreme feminist would see your joke as misogynist, too, it seems.
That makes you placed in the same group as S'mon.

What group is yours, then?
I'm in the middle, practically.

Quote from: Catelf;798897You fail to notice that an extreme feminist would see your joke as misogynist, too, it seems.
That makes you placed in the same group as S'mon.
.

Wait, what?  Pardon me for not using the appropriate color sarcasm font, but what I said was total sarcasm.  I thought that was pretty obvious.  That isn't even remotely close to what he did.

"I don't find her ugly, and why should it even matter to the content of the argument?"
"Well, she's not horribly ugly, just fat and plain.  Now THIS is what pro-GG girls look like on our side"

That was a sincere quote, posted with an image.  Not anything with what that woman actually thinks on the topic, but just her image, while attacking the other woman based only on her image.

That is textbook misogyny.

Problem is Sarcosanct is that sarcasim doesn't exist in the internet as people literally take things to literally.

Now I agree S'more did something stupid that can be taken for as sexist which is why I got on him for doing that.  Do I think that S'more is sexist?  NO.  He did one stupid thing that could be taken for as sexist which is why I called him a dumbass.  Did his one stupid mistake hurt gamergate.  A tiny bit which is why I called him a dumbass.  I, however, don't think that S'more is sexist.  I think he is human that did a dumb move.  Now if he keeps doing it my mind will change accordingly.

In my experience, it's not the initial offense but what folks do after that that really makes or breaks them.

Most reasonable people will accept 'whoa, I thought I was being funny, sorry, that was stupid.'

But people have a tendency to dive dive DIVE