Yeah, the best thing about this site is that there is a core of people who pay attention to the threads, but no is acting like a Nazi.

Quote from: estar;789199Yes but how did it effect your ability to publish, promote, or play classic D&D or another old school game?

People whoes opinion I don't agree with are a dime a dozen. The ones that matter are those who power is a such they can impact what you can or want to do.

Revisionism and the New Orthodoxy have most certainly affected what is published and played.

A few years ago, a local DM set up a B/X campaign and posted session reports on a forum. He was a player of about the same providence as I was (he started with Moldvay Basic, not Holmes). One of his players was another guy who started playing in 1980. Another had started with 2E.

So they play in a mini-sandbox. They go to a few locations. PCs die. New ones are created. They miss a lot of content. After about four sessions, the campaign dies.

Afterwards, the DM basically scolded the players for not following key old-school procedures. The didn't solicit rumors actively. The didn't hire enough hirelings. They didn't have enough rope and poles. They didn't use this mapping technique, or that protocol for checking for traps. etc. etc. From the sounds of it, the players shrugged and moved to a different DM. The upshot is the DM believed they were playing wrong, even though the right way (which he had clearly read on some OSR blog) isn't the way either he or the other long-time player had every played. They were trying to mimic something the DM had read about on the internet and they didn't have fun doing it.

Then there's megadungeons. Now, megadungeons are a very cool premise. But let's not pretend they were any kind of widespread thing outside Gygax's own campaign or the first few years of OD&D. I expect the number of people who played Steading of the Hill Giant - even just the monochrome edition - dwarfs the number who had played in a megadungeon up to that point.

So why are megadungeons regarded as some hallmark of old-school D&D? Because a bunch of fans dug around forums and old D&D arcana and uncovered the premise like archaeologists dusting off the rosetta stone. Again, which is perfectly fine. But then every wannabee old-school DM and his brother (including Maliszewski) had to publish one just to establish their OSR cred. In the space of a couple years, the OSR was synonymous with megadungeons - something which was outside the experience of 95 per cent of D&D players in 1982.

Smaller, setting-based dungeons like Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, or In Search of the Unknown, were overlooked as models of old-school play. And you saw nary a whisper about linked adventure series, like the U series or A series, as adventure models. Why not? Far more old-school players have experience with those sorts of adventures than with megadungeons. And they were a common topic of conservation on forums like Dragonsfoot and the Necromancer Games forums long before the old-school movement metastasized into an ultra-conservative jihad that looked to how Gygax played for guidance, rather than how most gamers themselves played back in the day.

So the embrace of ultra-conservative orthodoxy by the OSR did affect what people talked about, played, and published. It also alienated a lot of long-time gamers who frankly didn't give a shit how Gygax played, and saw no particular reason to imitate his play-style at their own table.

There are reasons I say that the term Old School makes more sense to me if read as a synonym or euphemism for "Early Gygaxian" ...

  But really, Pundit, do you need evidence? Just take up your mantle as High Anticleric of the World (1) of the Old-School/5th Edition Syncretist State (The motto: "Convert, Leave or Die") and declare Maliszewski excommunicate for not having always been a pure adherent of the True Way of Gaming. About half the OSR seems to have done it to the other half or each other in some form.

   

 1. In the sense of the World, the Flesh and the Devil. Zak S holds the position of High Anticleric of the Flesh; the position of High Anticleric of the Devil is still open, but Venger Satanis appears to be making a strong bid for it.

In this thread:

1. Spittle-flecked narcissist demonstrates just how threatening rival authority figures are, again

2. People calmly pointing out that he's missing, well, all of the important facts

3. People calmly pointing out that even if the facts were as he suspected, his conclusion would still be just shy of paranoid conspiracy

4. People congratulating one another on what a nice thing freedom of speech is

I met James once, and managed to get in a whole gaming session and a long follow-up conversation before I clued in to who he actually was. He didn't come across as a toxic lunatic, which in hindsight is slightly too rare a quality.

Quote from: fuseboy;789251In this thread:

1. Spittle-flecked narcissist demonstrates just how threatening rival authority figures are, again

2. People calmly pointing out that he's missing, well, all of the important facts

3. People calmly pointing out that even if the facts were as he suspected, his conclusion would still be just shy of paranoid conspiracy

4. People congratulating one another on what a nice thing freedom of speech is

I met James once, and managed to get in a whole gaming session and a long follow-up conversation before I clued in to who he actually was. He didn't come across as a toxic lunatic, which in hindsight is slightly too rare a quality.

Pundit's Razor: If two or more explanations are equally likely, the one that involves a storygamer swine conspiracy is probably correct.
-Emperor Norton

Maybe it's a good idea to stop seeing the world as a sports match where people who don't belong to team A belong to team B. It's very monolithic. Maybe you should look at it what is practical and what isn't.

For example a lot of WW stuff is written like essays and goes into depth about the themes and the mood of the games. I don't find it very practical. It doesn't help me as a GM, but I guess a lot of people read it to get into the mood of the game. I like more technical advice like for example advice telling me how many XP I should give my PC's and the NPC's based on the epicness of the game. Like Unisystem does.

But then again I like Fate campaign advice better even if it's probably more swinish than WoD. I like the writing down of questions and the ones who aren't answered after a few sessions are probably the campaign arc. That works for me.

Anyway, rambling here. Back to my point. Why fighting all these wars to people from the wrong camp? Get out of a game what works and ignore what doesn't work for you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;789165I did one better. In the section in AoI on the Patala Underworld, I provided you with all the mechanics, and building-system, and (later) things like monsters, treasure, etc., for you to MAKE YOUR OWN AoI megadungeon.

It's called "The Jakallan Underworld."

Quote from: amacris;789231We received a portion of the money back (about 60%). The other 40% was either retained by James as a license fee to give us the rights or had already been spent by him.  

Had we simply laid out and delivered his manuscript as-is, we probably would have turned a profit, even so; but because of the re-write Tavis and I did, the cost of layout, printing, and shipping ended up notably higher. Some of the special components also cost more than we projected. So we lost money, and if you add the opportunity cost of the delays it posed on our other projects, we lost a lot of money.

But I'm hopeful that our decision to deliver the best product we could will prove the right decision in the long term, in terms of Autarch as a brand and company.

Well, at least to me, and some other people, it showed that Autarch has integrity.  "You do not leave your mates in the cacky."

Quote from: Justin Alexander;789115(Oddly we then get a literal Maliszewski vs. the neighborhood boys post.)
.

That whole story about him stealing the little kid's shoe is fucking hysterical in it's peevish, fussy banality. It's like something out of a Harvey Pekar comic.

It's brilliant. It's a great story.

Quote from: Old Geezer;789274Well, at least to me, and some other people, it showed that Autarch has integrity.  "You do not leave your mates in the cacky."

Pretty much the reason I bought the PDF. After the whole Dwimmermount fiasco, I was happy to see that someone actually produced a quality product out of that mess.

Quote from: RPGPundit;789165I did one better. In the section in AoI on the Patala Underworld, I provided you with all the mechanics, and building-system, and (later) things like monsters, treasure, etc., for you to MAKE YOUR OWN AoI megadungeon.

Unfortunately, it's just a few page of random tables. Not even long random tables. It's almost worthless in practice because it's just the same stuff over and over.  

If you want to see a random dungeon done right, look at Mad Monks of Kwantoom from Kabuki Kaiser.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244So the embrace of ultra-conservative orthodoxy by the OSR did affect what people talked about, played, and published. It also alienated a lot of long-time gamers who frankly didn't give a shit how Gygax played, and saw no particular reason to imitate his play-style at their own table.

The thing is, the OSR didn't really do that. Look at how many OSR modules there are. Literally hundreds. Even now, probably 2-3 come out on average a week.

How many of them are megadungeons? Damned few.

Quote from: estar;789027James Maliskewski was an ass for abandoning Dwimmermount. And he faltered on Petty Gods as well. Both of which had to be bailed out by other people. The way it all went down he thoroughly burned his bridges with the larger OSR community. And he burned it by what he did.

Hrrmmm?? I don't read Black Gate anymore either. I really liked that e-zine right up until the time they published a bunch of Jmal articles after his great dissing of Old School Gamers by abandoning Dwimmermount.

Didn't think he deserved to have any article published after that. He shouldn't be a spokesperson for the OSR, or for old school gaming in general.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244Revisionism and the New Orthodoxy have most certainly affected what is published and played.

That wasn't my question, how it effected YOUR ability to publish, play, or promote D&D. What opportunities you personally did have because of the OSR "gatekeepers".

Quote from: Haffrung;789244Afterwards, the DM basically scolded the players for not following key old-school procedures.

Sounds like the DM was as an ass. Were you playing in this campaign?

Quote from: Haffrung;789244Then there's megadungeons. Now, megadungeons are a very cool premise. But let's not pretend they were any kind of widespread thing outside Gygax's own campaign or the first few years of OD&D. I expect the number of people who played Steading of the Hill Giant - even just the monochrome edition - dwarfs the number who had played in a megadungeon up to that point.

My experience back in the day was that there was more than few gamers with their prized dungeon. But it wasn't that common especially as the variety of published products grew and the individual referees gained experienced.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244So why are megadungeons regarded as some hallmark of old-school D&D?

Well Blackmoor started as a miniature wargame and after several months evolved to focus on the Blackmoor Dungeons. Greyhawk had its dungeon as the central tentpole from the get go. So my personal guess is that people it attracted to the mystique of being the focus of the campaign where game of Dungeon & Dragons was born.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244In the space of a couple years, the OSR was synonymous with megadungeons - something which was outside the experience of 95 per cent of D&D players in 1982.

That not supported by the Hoard and Horde timeline.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244Smaller, setting-based dungeons like Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, or In Search of the Unknown, were overlooked as models of old-school play.

Seriously? Have you looked at the Horde and Hoard list? Sorted it by adventure and publication date?

By 2008 there were 64 free and commercial module released for classic D&D or near clones.

In 2008 there was 31 modules released
2009 62 modules
2010 72 modules
2011 92 modules
Up to may of 2012 21 modules

with names like I2 Beyond the Black Wall, The Horrendous Heap of Sixteen Cities, Isle of the Unknown, G8 Manor of the Mountain Giant King, etc.

Yeah there was Stonehell, Barrowdown, and yes Dwimmermount. But I think the megadungeons are dwarfed by the sheer multitude of releases.

And while I sound critical, I am not. The OSR is so diverse and widespread that all that anyone sees is a slice, including myself. You happened to see the slice that included a lot of people making megadungeons. But the OSR is not dominated by megadungeons. Hell today it not even dominated by close clones of classic D&D. Instead classic D&D just the center of a diffuse and diverse crowd prompting, playing, and playing RPGs.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244And you saw nary a whisper about linked adventure series, like the U series or A series, as adventure models.

Again back to Horde and Hoard, there are the Howling Hills series by the Dungeon Delver, there are several series of modules with related codes. I will say that the OSR is not partial to Adventure Paths or anything like them.

Quote from: Haffrung;789244So the embrace of ultra-conservative orthodoxy by the OSR did affect what people talked about, played, and published. It also alienated a lot of long-time gamers who frankly didn't give a shit how Gygax played, and saw no particular reason to imitate his play-style at their own table.

I am not seeing the embrace of ultra-conservativism you are talking about. Certainly James Raggi of Lamentation marches to the beat of his own drummer. Kevin Crawford, Tim Shorts, and myself all do things that have little to with slavishly re-creating old materials. Looking over the Hoard and Horde list i can see names that I know are into gonzo, sandboxes, intrigue, etc. Nearly every subgenre is representated somewhere in the OSR. The ultra conservative are there as well. Just one of many possibilities that exists.

What I have to do? Go through each every Hoard and Hoard entry and compile them into hard statistics? Before you believe that there is no gatekeepers, that there is nothing to stop anybody who is willing to do the work to make a go of it?

The evidence is just not there.

Quote from: Haffrung;789196Sure, anyone can learn and enjoy any given playstyle, old or new. But it takes a particular kind of douchebaggery to pontificate about the righteousness of a particular orthodoxy when you're a recent convert yourself. It would be like me (a 40-something Canadian) preaching to a 70-something guy who grew up in Liverpool about Merseybeat and the dancehall scene in the early 60s just because I read a couple biographies about the Beatles.

JMal liked to shit all over the D&D I grew up with (BECMI), so there's no love lost here.  That said, dude had a blog, on which he wrote out a bunch of his own particular thoughts about the game.  He was enthusiastic and fervent, as the newly converted often are.  Whatever other many, well-documented failures and failings he may have had, I can't fault him for having a blog about his new conversion.  Hell, that's better than going on forums and spewing one's opinions on any tangentially related thread.

I think this also goes to one reason for JMal's popularity.  He may have, as Pundit suggests, appealed to an ultra-orthodox wing of old-school D&D gaming.  But that isn't what made him popular.  For a lot of folks who never stopped playing whatever flavor of TSR-D&D they liked, he was harmless at worst.  They may not agree with all of his takes, but within his prolific output there'd be some stuff that really hit the nail on the head.  But that'd just make him another blogger.

What made JMal such a major voice in the wilderness is that there a lot of folks like him.  Some of them had played back in the 80s, but not quite in the dungeon/wilderness exploration mode.  Some of them had played 2nd Ed. in the 90s, when that mode had been largely abandoned.  Some of them had seen 3e as the realization of all their fervent wishes, but then realized that you must be careful what you wish for; you just may get it.  Even some people who'd started with 3e or 4e, but were intrigued by what JMal described, entirely different from the D&D they had learned.

For these somewhat disparate groups, JMal's "outsider going in" stance and the archaeological aspect of his "discoveries" were a major part of the draw.  This was an audience who'd never played OD&D, AD&D, or B/X by the book, and they were suddenly saying, "Hey, if you just assume that the designers knew what they were doing, you find there's a really interesting game here!"
Further, it was that position that meant when someone said, "Hey, I'm new to the OSR and want to find out more about.  What are some resources?" they were invariably pointed to Grognardia.