So, in looking at what I think was... troublesome about sorcery.  In Amberite terms it was easily the least useful of all the magic types.

I mean, power words, they might be slightly gimpy but they're also useful, sort of like cantrips, and you can use them just by saying a word.
Conjuration:  ok it takes a while to do, but you can create literally ANYTHING.  That's pretty good shit.

Sorcery: you get to memorize ONE spell, and often have limits where you can cast it on top of that.

Shit, that's awful. Sure you can get an item to hang a dozen spells or whatever, but then you're relying on an item.

Why the fuck would any amberite ever take sorcery? I mean, a logrus user I get because its built into the logrus that they can hang spells off it...

RPGPundit

There are those who, faced with this, would then use spell-racking items.  This has always been a problem in the games I've played in, because the GM has said that you also have to have Conjuration to have an item with that ability... but then, you've never needed Shapeshifting to have a shapeshifting item, or Pattern (or Logrus) to have a Shadow travelling item. So I'd have no problem with that.  Maybe a discussion for another thread, though.

Back to the point: the memorisation thing, yeah, just the one spell is quite annoying.  I've never known anyone to try to use it, though.  Has anyone else?

It neatly explains why Amberites don't use it in the contexts in which we see them.

Corwin is described as a sorceror in Avalon, however.

I would suspect that given time to assemble a powerful spell carefully, they would do so.  It allows an Amberite to create broad effects in shadow without LEAVING the shadow.

Yes, there are two important things about including sorcery.

1. showing its power in relation to everything else (low)
2. making the combat sequencing point that sorcery, by dint of psyche, can be faster than warfare.

Quote from: OthaIt neatly explains why Amberites don't use it in the contexts in which we see them.

Corwin is described as a sorceror in Avalon, however.

Using Pattern in the right way in a shadow where Pattern is unknown could easily get you the description of a "sorcerer".

RPGPundit

Or Corwin bothered to learn the magic of the shadow of Avalon - i.e. magic that works according to the properties of Avalon, rather than pan-shadow Sorcery

V.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhy the fuck would any amberite ever take sorcery?

Even a single spell can still make a big difference. Corwin would have had better luck spooning his way out of jail and Random could have packed a revolver AND a spell when doing his hero stuff. A single spell is all you need to cast anti-magic and shut down the spam sorcerers. Also it's nice to be able to open magic doors and the like.

Personaly I wouldn't mind paying fifteen points to keep a single spell on hand except for the concentration requirements. It's like a holdout dagger that requires you to hold your ankle and hop on one foot -- crazy!

Hm.

How much do you think it should cost to know the 'magic' of a particular shadow?  I think maybe equal to the cost of the shadow... 1 point for your generic shadow, 2 for a golden circle shadow, 4 for a shadow of power.

Considering the number of Shadows, you can't really charge for the cost of knowing a particular Shadow's magic any more than you can charge for learning a particular Shadow's piloting or engineering or art.

On the other hand, limiting characters to only truly knowing to full powers of the magic of Shadows they have paid points for is almost the same thing... and feels better to me.

Would you let someone pay points for Shadow Earth?

What if it were Flora's personal shadow (a pet theory of mine)?

Would someone be able to learn its magic?

All good questions

To say something more helpful...

If you spent enough time in Flora's Shadow trying to learn the local magic, she might well discover your presence long before you finished learning... and since she has paid the points for the Shadow to begin with, she gets to kick you out.  And since she's been there longer... well, would you want to try and fight her?

I'd imagine multiple characters could have points in the same Shadow with good reason, though.

I'd allow Pattern initiates to hang spells on the Pattern in the same way as a Logrus initiate.

All we know of sorcery in the books comes from Merlin who specifically notes that he is capable of using Pattern or Logrus sorcery but uses Logrus because it's the method he learned first and hence is most familiar with. He never mentions any specific advantage of the Logrus over the Pattern when it comes to hanging spells.

Added to this, we know that there are a number of Pattern sorcerers (Fiona, Brand, Bleys, Luke, Dworkin?) and they don't seem to tote around a load of items to hang their spells.

Plus, we know that Broken Pattern initiates hang and casts spells in much the same way as Merlin does, allowing for problems casued by the break in their Pattern image. While this may be due to the influence of the Logrus it's just as reasonable to assume that it is also a feature of the Pattern.

At the end of the day we see Pattern used by Corwin, neither the most educated user of that power (clearly Fiona, Bleys and Bran know far more) nor a spell casting sorcerer, and Logrus is used by Merlin who received a full and detailed education in it's use. Assuming limits to those powers based on what theose two very different charcters were able to do seems a little strange. Doesn't Suhuy comment at one point that the only truely unique power of the Logrus is the ability to call on primal chaos?

The explanation for Corwin as Sorcerer in Avalon always seemed to me to be his pattern powers.  Certainly if he cast the real Ganelon through shadow, he didn't do it with a spell, but something akin to hellriding.

Quote from: Studd BeefpileThe explanation for Corwin as Sorcerer in Avalon always seemed to me to be his pattern powers.  Certainly if he cast the real Ganelon through shadow, he didn't do it with a spell, but something akin to hellriding.

I agree. I don't have the books to hand, but I seem to recall that it was only Oberon-as-Ganelon who actually referreed to Corwin as a sorcerer, and that historically he had always acted as a standard military leader. )-a-G specifically attributed sorcerous powers to Corwin on the basis of what was obviously a hellride.