Quote from: J ArcaneAnd yet you're the one babbling about rationality . . .

Religious beliefs are completely irrational and have absolutely no basis upon which to draw. Decisions come to rationally may end up being wrong for lack of evidence or unforseen factors, but they at least start from logic and an attempt to think.

Frankly I don't really understand what you're trying to get at with this comment so I'm trying to hit what might be the point of it with a fairly broad brush. Explain?

Quote from: GRIMReligious beliefs are completely irrational and have absolutely no basis upon which to draw. Decisions come to rationally may end up being wrong for lack of evidence or unforseen factors, but they at least start from logic and an attempt to think.

Frankly I don't really understand what you're trying to get at with this comment so I'm trying to hit what might be the point of it with a fairly broad brush. Explain?

Bigotry based on fear is not rational.

Unless you're going to tell me that Nox's ramblings about Islam are rational, because frankly your behavior and statements regarding the subject are remarkably similar, and just as ignorant.

Quote from: SpikeFaith is belief in the abscence of proof. If something is proven you don't have faith that it exists, you have knowledge.

The problem is that absolute proof is a very rare thing.  It's why there are so few laws in science and mathematics.  The whole reason the movie The Matrix works on a philosophical level is that we can't even be 100% sure that anything is real.

Quote from: J ArcaneBigotry based on fear is not rational.

Unless you're going to tell me that Nox's ramblings about Islam are rational, because frankly your behavior and statements regarding the subject are remarkably similar, and just as ignorant.

*snort*

No, but fear based upon a rational examination of the evidence is.

An irrational fear is a phobia.

Nox exhibits an irrational fear of 'Islam', there is plenty to be worried about in that as with other religions, but Nox's fear is that of an uninformed Fox viewer. There aren't 'Jihaddies under the bed' who are going to sneak out and behead us all in the night but in a much broader context the clash between rational and irrational thought has nothing less at stake than the survival of the human species.

I don't fear suicide bombings or screaming scimitar wielders. I fear the undermining of science and education. I fear people voting on important issues based upon what some hallucinating desert wanderer said over 2,000 years ago (or rather what they said after its been put through the historical equivalent of the Google language translator a few dozen times). I fear people who fervently believe in an afterlife and so devalue this life.

I fear ID, I fear 'Creation Science', I fear the incompatibility of religious points of view, I fear nationalism, I fear all this irrationality and the process of non-thinking that threatens us all.

That's a rational fear.

You fear an imagined global conspiracy based on rampantly generalizing an entire body of people based on a smaller subset of it, with healthy dose of standard xenophobia tossed in the mix of course.

Yup.  That's irrational.  And bigoted.  As well as just plain fucking stupid.

You deserve the Nox comparison in every way.

Except Nox at least talks about rpgs a lot, too.

Quote from: JimBobOzExcept Nox at least talks about rpgs a lot, too.

Grim talks about RPGs too!  They just have to be 3dgy enough, and rip off artwork from GTA games.

This is like the religion and philosophy thread Lite, isn't it?

My creed: I don't care what you believe, it's what you do that's important. As long as you're not blowing up tube trains or sending letter bombs to the DVLA, you're quite free to think that Claudia Winkleman is sending you messages through your shoes or whatever you like. When you cross that line, though, it's the re-education camps for you!

Ned

Quote from: GRIMReligious beliefs are completely irrational and have absolutely no basis upon which to draw. Decisions come to rationally may end up being wrong for lack of evidence or unforseen factors, but they at least start from logic and an attempt to think.

If you can see material benefits from acting in a particular way, it is rational to act in that way - correct?

Faith is acting as if something is true (you might quibble over this definition, but it's the one used by me, CS Lewis and the Archbishop of Cantebury).  If faith inspires you to take an action of which you can also see the material benefits, is it not also rational to act in that way?

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonFaith is acting as if something is true (you might quibble over this definition, but it's the one used by me, CS Lewis and the Archbishop of Cantebury).  If faith inspires you to take an action of which you can also see the material benefits, is it not also rational to act in that way?

Hastur,
 You just remind me of the movie Shadowlands , where Anthony Hopkins portrays C.S. Lewis. and Debra Winger plays the woman who becomes his wife.  Lots of good stuff in there about faith and belief.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0108101/quotes

- E.W.C.

Thanks for necroing this... I'd actually forgotten why I had J Arcane on my ignore list.  That was a close call.

Quote from: J ArcaneGrim talks about RPGs too!  They just have to be 3dgy enough, and rip off artwork from GTA games.

Oh look, an incorrigable twat, and outside of its natural habitat too.

In that instance it was the idiotic and kneejerk reaction by the White Knight lobby that drew my ire. Things that piss me off tend to draw my attention, and postings, more - oddly enough.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonFaith is acting as if something is true (you might quibble over this definition, but it's the one used by me, CS Lewis and the Archbishop of Cantebury).  If faith inspires you to take an action of which you can also see the material benefits, is it not also rational to act in that way?

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.
Or belief without evidence.

It still isn't rational to act on the basis of the faith, no.

Quote from: KoltarYou just remind me of the movie Shadowlands , where Anthony Hopkins portrays C.S. Lewis. and Debra Winger plays the woman who becomes his wife.  Lots of good stuff in there about faith and belief.

I haven't seen the movie - which is weird because I've heard it's good and I'm a huge CS Lewis fan

Quote from: GRIMbelief without evidence.

That's not the definition of faith that I use, that I'm using on this thread or that is used by any religious figure that I'm aware of.  If the reviews I've read are correct, you're making that same mistake that caused Dawkins to make such a mess of his latest book

Quote from: GRIMIt still isn't rational to act on the basis of the faith, no.

I think you misunderstand me.  Faith is a tool, a tool used to inspire.  To keep you hoping when all looks hopeless, to push you into taking actions that you know are right, but wouldn't have the guts to do on your own.  It took seventy years for Wilberforce to pass a bill to abolish slavery across the British Empire.  Would he have kept pushing on if he didn't have faith in the inherent rights and dignity of all human beings?  He didn't think so