Jibbajibba sometimes delivers the awesome; sometimes he thinks he has the answers when he doesn't.

Thanks for that great analysis of how to treat switchbacks in a road, Rob; in fact it generally goes a long way to explaining why "rough" hexes cost more in wargames--because often you will taking a meandering intrahex path.

Also need to find myself a map wheel. I've seen them in movies once or twice but hadn't thought about using one for gaming.

Thank Arminus, one thing I found out over on my blog is why do this at all when the movement rate for rough terrains takes switchbacks into account.

In this case there is a preexisting path that needs to be measured. Particularly if it a real world feature or you overlying hex grid on an arbitrary map. Otherwise yes I agree, the rough terrain modifier takes in account the switch backs and doubling backs.

I've used ordinarily scaled maps a lot more often than hex-gridded ones.

The latter are suited to boardgame formalisms, but I haven't used those much.

Typically, actual geography is more important than what might conform to grid  of spaces.

A party of adventurers might reckon they're so many days from Forte Garde, but at the moment what matters are rather finer details of the siting of their camp than would be at all apparent on a map with a scale of miles per inch.

Round-by-round tactical action may use a grid, especially if the rules set is geared to that, but then it is really relevant only at a locus of action: the radius of a few yards or tens of yards where figures are maneuvering.

estar, thanks for providing a coherent and comprehensive response to jibbajibba's map. Well done.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683b. Hex maps are weak at working out locations because you can't divide a hex. With a grid you can subdivide each "square" which is why you have 6 figure grid references as well as 4 figure grid references

Factually incorrect. Subdividing a hex works the same as subdividing a grid. It does result in partial hexes, but it is a simple tiling exercise.

Your appeal to specialized knowledge is an argument from authority. When your "specialized knowledge" doesn't even include the knowledge of how to subdivide hexes - a common solution proposed in gaming circles over 35 years ago - we are left with your main "argument" actually being one of the classical logical fallacies. Ironic for someone decrying his opponents lack of logic.

Quote from: Raven;777748Do you people really take this fool seriously?

Short answer, no.

Longer answer, fuck no.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683If I placed this in a hex grid it doesn't change the length of the road and due to the windiness of the road the abstraction of hexes serves us no good.

If your response to an abstraction is to ask, "Why the heck am I not getting complete accuracy out of this thing?" then I'm not entirely sure you actually grok the concept of abstraction.

Estar's reply demonstrates one way in which you can use hexes to very rapidly get "good enough" approximations of distance by simply counting hexes.

Another way of using the abstraction of the hex is to simply not map that path in the first place. If I put that map onto a 1-mile hex grid, the Carriage Barn would be sitting in the middle of one hex and the Observation Tower would be sitting in the middle of a hex two hexes away. If my players asked, "Is there a path from here to that Observation Tower?" I would either know the answer or I would consult the abstract mechanic I have for randomly determining whether or not a path exists.

The benefit here is that I don't have to map out every single path that exists in my campaign world: Their existence (or lack of existence) is handled abstractly and I can just focus on the features of the campaign world which significance.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;778172If your response to an abstraction is to ask, "Why the heck am I not getting complete accuracy out of this thing?" then I'm not entirely sure you actually grok the concept of abstraction.

Estar's reply demonstrates one way in which you can use hexes to very rapidly get "good enough" approximations of distance by simply counting hexes.

Another way of using the abstraction of the hex is to simply not map that path in the first place. If I put that map onto a 1-mile hex grid, the Carriage Barn would be sitting in the middle of one hex and the Observation Tower would be sitting in the middle of a hex two hexes away. If my players asked, "Is there a path from here to that Observation Tower?" I would either know the answer or I would consult the abstract mechanic I have for randomly determining whether or not a path exists.

The benefit here is that I don't have to map out every single path that exists in my campaign world: Their existence (or lack of existence) is handled abstractly and I can just focus on the features of the campaign world which significance.

Actually I was going to leave this thread but coem back again after the weekend to find Estar has written a treatise on it. So I will write something when I have the time.

My point was supposed to be that this path would exist inside a typical 1 league (aka 3 mile hex) so you would have to estimate it by eye. I would never expect anyone to acually divide a hex into tiny hexes so that would take ages.
I was trying to point out that it takes 30 minutes to teach an 11 year old how to work out the distance between 2 points using the scale on a map to track features. So for me I looked at that map and the scale and worked out in about 10 seconds that there were about 9 x 1/4 mile sections to it so the path was c. 2 1/4 miles long but also rises pretty steeply about 1500 feet so would take an hour to walk which is all you need in a RPG.
If I get time I will reply to Rob's points.

Wow, am I really the first to mention you can have pentagonal tiling for three dimensional maps?

Dodecahedral tiling!

Mind you... it's kinda silly. But it tiles!

Quote from: jibbajibba;778186My point was supposed to be that this path would exist inside a typical 1 league (aka 3 mile hex) so you would have to estimate it by eye. I would never expect anyone to acually divide a hex into tiny hexes so that would take ages.

When you do reply point out where you wrote this in the post because I am not seeing it anywhere. The closest I guess would this

QuoteIf I placed this in a hex grid it doesn't change the length of the road and due to the windiness of the road the abstraction of hexes serves us no good. Just learn to use the scale. this is something 11 years old learn it's not a difficult thing and it takes moments to do

Nowhere in the post it is mentioned that the attached map is supposed to be inside of a single hex.

The point of my post was to demonstrate that you can get a good enough estimate of distance of a winding path by using hexes.

If you want to move the goal posts and talk about taking an arbitrary map and estimating distance without any prior prep then you have me beat. I don't see how that applicable to a gaming session however as the referee generally knows beforehand the geography of his setting and generally prepares beforehand.

But if you had to do it on the fly then you can use a transparent overlay like the one that came with the 1st edition Forgotten Realms boxed set. These days it not hard to make one of you own with printer ready transparencies available at any office supply store.

If you want to talk about a winding path within a hex then again, as pointed out by others, that is nicely abstracted by imposing a higher movement cost to move into the hex.

Quote from: jibbajibba;778186If I get time I will reply to Rob's points.

Don't waste [strike]y[/strike]our time.

Quote from: Will;778194Wow, am I really the first to mention you can have pentagonal tiling for three dimensional maps?

Dodecahedral tiling!

Mind you... it's kinda silly. But it tiles!

No, post #12.

CRKrueger, I was TECHNICALLY correct because... look, a flumph!

The Flumph works every time, that's why they're bringing it back.

Quote from: estar;777718Thank you for providing that map. It will illustrate the utility of using hexes quite nicely

It has a small scale so we are forced to use an odd measurement for a hex. One-eighth of a mile or 660 feet per hex. When I drew this over top of the image it each hex measured from top to bottom 0.365 inches. The purple path I drew over the original map path measured 6.027 inches. Making the true length of the path, if you hiked it, 10,899 feet or 2.06 miles.

At a game table you could have a device with a wheel that you could roll along to measure the true length of anything on the map. But that not a common piece of equipment a person is likely to possess.

The virtue of a hex grid is that from each hex there are circles of hexes surrounding it out to an arbitrary distance. This makes it very useful to measure distance quickly from a center hex to an arbitrary point.

So what if you have a hex filled with winding paths inside the hexes. Well if I counted up the hexes that the path touches it comes out to 13 hexes or 1.625 miles. (the red numbers) Not very close to its true distance. However if I double counted (or even triple count) hexes (the blue numbers) with particularly convoluted paths. Then I get about 17 hexes or 2.125 much closer to the true distance of 2.064 miles.

Like any tool you need to use your best judgement in using this. In this case you need to estimate by sight whenever a convoluted path inside of a hex means you double or triple count it.

Going to reply to a couple of things just cos you have put so much effort in that it deserves a response.
Goign to try and keep everything based on fact and not goign to indluge in ad hominen attacks.
At the end of the day I realise this is futile but meh... so is 90% of human existence so .

So first off I chose this scale of map because it's small. The idea was to show what might happen inside a hex so as to demonstrate that counting hexes was rarely going to give an accurate overal picture. But specifically when a route was complex enough not to be able to use a scale to measure it, this woudl imply that just straight up counting hexes would be hard as well. That was why I chose a mountain route on a small scale map.

I would not have expected someone to impose a micro grid on the map. I can see that you could carry a transparency of a hex grid and use this to estimate distance, woudl of course depend on matching the scales etc but I can see (as in this example) it can be done. The question is why? There is a scale on the map and its there to help you work out distance either by eye or by sectioning the route against an edge.
As I noted previously people that use maps all the time don't use hex maps. If they are the panecea then why don't Ordnace survey publish on hex maps, why don't armies use them or orienteers or anyone apart from gamers (actually I could see a biologist using a hex grid for sampling species diversity etc. Usually they use a square grid in 10x10 so woring out % cover and stuff is easier but I digress ..)

So yes you can produce a grid of a small enough scale to be able to estimate a route on hexes, without a doubt, but why would you go to that much effort? Reading a map and using the scale to measure distance is the first thing you learn in goegraphy class when you are 11. My question was never "what do you use hexes for?" but "why do you bother to use hexes?"
the obvious answer is becuase that is what you are used to which is just another way of saying "tradition".

Quote from: estar;777737And while Indiana University of Pennsylvania is not as prestigious as the oldest university in the UK it has a decent geography department which I happened to minor in while studying for my computer science degree. Aside from personal interest, I was a honors student in high school in geography, I figure it would a practical application for my programming skills. Because programming is a means to an end. To make the computer useful for a particular purpose. In mid 80s computer technology was starting to impact geography in a big way.

Yeah I prolly overstated the academic stuff there. Never my intention to do that just to establish I have a passing familiarity with maps.
I also did some GIS stuff at college so familiar with computers and geography etc.

QuoteWhat I don't see mentioned here or in the proceeding paragraph is that geography is not just about the accurate rendering of the surface of the earth on a flat surface. Geography is also about using maps to convey information. Information that related to geography like population density, traffic patterns, crime, wealth, etc.

I was taught at IUP to understand what information the maps meant to convey and draw it accordingly using best practices for the information that was needed to be displayed.

Actually I have mentionned thsi point at length previously.
My main point was that hexes are a great abstraction for a boardgame or similar where you need to measure distances a lot and move peices or units round a lot and different players are doing it. In this case the abstrations round out and its a good method to compute movement. In an RPG there is no need to do that. RPGs, at least in my experience, are not games in which players are moving lots of peices around a large area. They are games in which, and Phillip notes this far more concisely than I have, the actual geography and how it affects the PCs is a much more important question. A PC may ask "how far is it to King's point from here?" but the answer he gets will be based on so many variables from who he is asking to the nature of his request etc. The answer he gets from a guy that is moving a trade caravan will come in days not miles, the answer from a military general responsible for logisits will be different again.
But the most important thing is the PC probably won't then ask a dozen other questions about a dozen other locations thus forcing the GM to make loads of measurements in a short time.

In short the GM is being asked a small number of questions about distance infrequently and so doesn't need to rely on a hex grid to get answers.

QuoteWhat we are discussing here is the use of geography as it related to gaming a setting within a tabletop roleplaying campaign. A leisure activity. My goal is to make the map as accurate as possible, convey as much information as possible within the constraint that it is being used as tool during a tabletop roleplaying. So it is essential that it is easily and quickly used.

Using what I learned in my geography minor I picked the elements of mapping to create maps that I felt made for excellent gaming references. I guess I am doing something right because people are buying my maps. And I marvel that they are buying my maps despite the fact they don't look like they are drawn by an artist.

The point isn't to map the surface of Greyhawk accurate, the point is to convey the geography of Greyhawk in a way that it is both accurate AND quickly referee by a referee who is bantering with four to eight other individuals around a table.

I have no doubt your maps sell and you have expereince of gaming maps.
I would say that gamers seem to like hex maps. I would go on to say that that comes from tradition, So selling traditional hex maps seems to be a definite market opportunity. No dispute.
The point is are there things you can do with hexes in a roleplay not wargame context, that you can't do with an ordinary map?

QuoteYes the gaming cartographer has to discipline himself not to follow the hex edges. I personally have two mapping styles, one uses hexes and hex system similar Judges Guild Wilderlands. The hex grid influences geography a lot using that style.

The other style was inspired by the map of Harn and that is not influenced by hexes. The maps is drawn first and the hex are overlaid afterwards. This is due the fact I don't use symbols for any terrain or vegetation. Instead I use fills for terrain and color for vegetation which allows me to draw the edge as they would appear in real life.

No arguments here. I would say a lot of maps that use hexes let the hexes have a lot of influence and this gets worse on larger scale maps

QuoteThat is not true. Judges Guild worked out a system to subdivide a hex back in 1977. In the real world you don't use hexes because we are mapping a oblate sphere onto a flat surface. A sphere that is divided into longitude and latitude. So trend is to use grid.

In gaming during the 70s hexes were found to be enormously useful to create playable wargames that accurately measured distance and area. Because this occurred alongside the development of tabletop RPGs it crossed over.

Look up Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon mapping system. It used a series of 5 mile, .2 mile, and 44 foot hexes to created a system of nested hexes that allow mapping from the campaign view down to a local view of a settlement or locale.

I wrote a popular blog spot on the ins and outs of mapping with hexes.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/12/more-mapping-with-hexes.html

You miss the point I am not saying its impossible to layer smaller and smaller hexes onto a map. I mean Christaller was doing that for central place theory in the 1920s. My point its that if you have say a 1 KM hex grid with 2 inch hexes you can't easily refer to a specific point in the hex. You can't subdivide it by eye.  the standard grid used on normal maps, the ones that non-gamers use, use 4 and 6 figure grid references. the 4 figure gives you the grid square, the 6 figure gives you the precise spot. Effectively the additional digit on the horizontal and vertical axes divides each grid square into 100 smaller squares. This is simple and intuitive to people in the same way that % are. So 45 78 is okay but 457 782 is far more accurate and easy for people to use. Which is why its the international standard for reading maps.

QuoteTo be blunt you need to pull your head of your academic asshole.  In my opinion your deep knowledge of the topic is leaving you blind to what is useful to the average gamer. You have skills honed by years of academic study and map use, making reading real world maps second nature.

This is not true of the average gamer. They need aides and the right presentation to make a map useful to them for gaming. For what is a leisure activity.

When it comes to making maps for the Ordinance Survey, for the local planning council or for the military, you are the expert. When it comes to making usable and accurate maps for gaming, I been at it continuously for 30 years. Including manufacturing by hand my own maps in the 80s and learning how to use computers to draw maps starting in the 90s. I been selling professionally for the last decade.

Quit using the emotion dodge and own up to the fact that when comes to making maps for gaming you are not the expert in the topic.

Okay, a littler personal and off topic but I will let it slide. I am not an expert I was merely stating a familiarity with maps to avoid the "you know nothing" label.
My point is that the ability to read an ordinary map is not hard. You can teach it to an average 11 year old in 30 minutes.

Yes gamers use hex maps for fantasy games and old school sci fi, yes this comes from the wargame roots of the hobby, yes you are fully steeped in the lore. I have been playing RPGs, since I was 10. The first 'complex" game I got when I was 8 was SPIs War of the Ring with its massive Hex map of Middle Earth. I have a passing familiarity with the genre myself. This doesn't mean that hex maps bring anything more than familiarity to the table when you move from board and war games to RPGs.

You remain emotionally invested, I mean you must have spend ages adding small hex grids measuring distances etc more refusing my point

Ask yourself why is it just gamers that use hex maps?
Are they the only people who need to estimate distances on maps?
Are they the only people that use maps for leisure?