Quote from: Rincewind1;776973Not even Afghan caves or Cambodian/Columbian jungles?

I see your jungles with my infrared satellites and raise my fleet of reconaissance drones.

Quote from: Arminius;777011Not really. Hexmaps provide an abstraction that lets you interact with terrain in a way that's *similar* to the real thing, without excessive complexity (integrating over a topo & terrain map) or handwaving. The same for point-to-point movement. It's not strictly speaking realistic but unless you stick to roads it's very difficult to say how long it will take to get from A to B on a non-regulated map--is a straight line best? If not, then which of the infinite possible overland routes do you take?

The key is not to treat a hex map purely as a way of measuring distance but to literally make each hex a single type of terrain, as in a wargame.

Re: point to point I just remembered that Metagaming's old solo Grailquest module for The Fantasy Trip was effectively ptp if you mapped it.

The point isn't that this is the only way to do things or that "analog/continuous" mapping is worse than "digitized/quantized/chunked" graphs. Just that different approaches to abstraction can be functional and fun. The hexcrawl or point-point map makes geography more gamelike, but that's not necessarily a bad thing at all.

Yes by all the gaming gods. This. Exactly this. All of this.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777074So you are saying a wilderness hexcrawl is the only way to run a sandbox?

No I am not saying that. Why would you even ask since I've elsewhere said the opposite of that. Also you can tell I didn't say that because when you read what I did write you won't see "a wilderness hexcrawl is the only way to run a sandbox" anywhere in what I wrote.

It's OK that you don't like hexes, but your insistence that the only reason anyone ever use hexes is due to tradition is silly and continuing to insist on that point makes you sound silly.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080but that usefulness is entirely trivial in an RPG. and a hex map is still inaccurate compared to measuring it.
Give me one example of an rpg where .

First off it not based on the needs of the game i.e. mechanics. It based on the needs of the campaign. If the campaign doesn't need quick measuring of distance then it doesn't need an aide to do it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080i) You have to measure a distance in a couple of seconds

Tactical combat and travel within and between locales. Particularly in a sandbox campaign where the players go off in

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080ii) you have to measure a lot of distances quickly

Tactical combat when you care about positioning. Which I do in my games. Anything that cuts down on the amount of time each players spends on their turn is a good thing in my opinion and it keeps the game flowing.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080iii) You actually need distances to be accurate and you can't decide that as GM I mean you haven't got accurate speeds for anyone anyway...

You don't need accuracy you need a good enough ballpark figure.

In our previous conservation you established that you can eyeball distance fairly accurately. In that conversation and now this, you fail to comprehend that not everybody posses that ability in equal degrees.

Either you have it or don't. I have a guy in my shop who can spot a millimeter difference between two otherwise identical parts. Nobody else in the shop can do this without a tape measure. The difference between you and him, is that he acknowledges that it is a specific talent, while you magically expect everybody to be able to do this.

Well they don't and most people need aide like a ruler or grid.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080For me it goes
Player: Okay how far is it to Dragon pass
GM: Well from what you know of the geography it's 10 miles as the crow flies but the road winds plenty and would take about 6 or maybe 7 hours.
Player: Cross country?
GM: Tough country so you could cut the distance but would probably take longer.
Player: Okay we take the road.

This is a simplistic answer. A judgment like this is based on looking at a map and figuring out the distance "as the crow flies" and applying a fudge factor because the road is in terrain that causes it to wind around a lot.

For you, based on our previous conversation, you can look at the paper, and knowing its skill quickly come up with a guessimate that "as the crow flies" it is 10 miles. I don't doubt.

For me however, I don't have to ability to do that without an aide, either an ruler or a grid. Since I don't want to putz around with a ruler, opt for a grid. Because of my wargame experience and learning the limits of a rectangular grid I opt for a hex grid. Which allows me to quickly estimate the distance.  With the added advantage that I don't need need to look at a scale, I just need to know what the hex represent. Thus I can have an assortment of maps printed at different paper sizes laying in front me and estimate distances with good enough accuracy.

Quote from: estar;777111First off it not based on the needs of the game i.e. mechanics. It based on the needs of the campaign. If the campaign doesn't need quick measuring of distance then it doesn't need an aide to do it.



Tactical combat and travel within and between locales. Particularly in a sandbox campaign where the players go off in


Tactical combat when you care about positioning. Which I do in my games. Anything that cuts down on the amount of time each players spends on their turn is a good thing in my opinion and it keeps the game flowing.




You don't need accuracy you need a good enough ballpark figure.

In our previous conservation you established that you can eyeball distance fairly accurately. In that conversation and now this, you fail to comprehend that not everybody posses that ability in equal degrees.

Either you have it or don't. I have a guy in my shop who can spot a millimeter difference between two otherwise identical parts. Nobody else in the shop can do this without a tape measure. The difference between you and him, is that he acknowledges that it is a specific talent, while you magically expect everybody to be able to do this.

Well they don't and most people need aide like a ruler or grid.



This is a simplistic answer. A judgment like this is based on looking at a map and figuring out the distance "as the crow flies" and applying a fudge factor because the road is in terrain that causes it to wind around a lot.

For you, based on our previous conversation, you can look at the paper, and knowing its skill quickly come up with a guessimate that "as the crow flies" it is 10 miles. I don't doubt.

For me however, I don't have to ability to do that without an aide, either an ruler or a grid. Since I don't want to putz around with a ruler, opt for a grid. Because of my wargame experience and learning the limits of a rectangular grid I opt for a hex grid. Which allows me to quickly estimate the distance.  With the added advantage that I don't need need to look at a scale, I just need to know what the hex represent. Thus I can have an assortment of maps printed at different paper sizes laying in front me and estimate distances with good enough accuracy.

Dude you like hexes I get it no point us arguing about it.

Every time I have tried to wean my players from hexes, those that like them complain that they want a 'real' map (eg one with hexes) and the others that don't care are indifferent enough that it is usually just as easy to overlay a hex grid over it and be done with it. Scales are scales, and as a player I can work with them either way, even on a normal grid, the s*sqrt2 doesn't scare my trusty calculator.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777080me it goes
Player: Okay how far is it to Dragon pass
GM: Well from what you know of the geography it's 10 miles as the crow flies but the road winds plenty and would take about 6 or maybe 7 hours.
Player: Cross country?
GM: Tough country so you could cut the distance but would probably take longer.
Player: Okay we take the road.

This is too handwavey for me. 6 miles hexes are abstracted (like virtually  everything else in D&D) but at least they're backed up by hard numbers (terrain mod, move rate) instead of my inconsistent brain. And if the need for more detail arises I can zoom into that 6-mile hex and get a more accurate view of what lies within.

And since multiple people in this thread are providing quality reasons why they prefer hexes I would say this...

QuoteSo ... meh hexes are just tradition.

... is irrelevant.

It does seem like hexes do have some notable advantages, not to say that other ways won't work. I was just curious because it seemed like hexes were all I had really heard of.

Quote from: Raven;777195This is too handwavey for me. 6 miles hexes are abstracted (like virtually  everything else in D&D) but at least they're backed up by hard numbers (terrain mod, move rate) instead of my inconsistent brain. And if the need for more detail arises I can zoom into that 6-mile hex and get a more accurate view of what lies within.

And since multiple people in this thread are providing quality reasons why they prefer hexes I would say this...



... is irrelevant.

bollocks.
If the pass is 10 miles away then its 10 miles away doesn't matter if there are hexes or not. If the road winds un the mouintain to get to it so it is 23 miles long then the PCs will take 7 hours to get there if they take the road. Unless the PCs have GPS or accurate Ordnance Survey maps they have no idea precisely how far things are away even if they have a map passed to them by the local mayor.

The road through Hex A34 might be straight or it might be as windy as your logic. What matters is the length of the road not how may hexes it crosses.

A hex might be mostly forest so you could say I will roll on the forest encounter table for this hex or you could say the PCs are in a forest so I will roll on the forest encounter table.

You like Hexes cool, they are great for board games where rough distances need to be computed rapidly very often and compared in a fair way for different players, but don't pretend in an RPG, where you might need to compute one distance every hour and everything is percieved by the character in the game experiencing the world as described by the GM, that they offer any advantage to a normal everyday map that normal folks use every day for doing shit like working out how far away shit is and how long it will take to get there.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777352bollocks.

Bullshit. You're saying it's "just tradition" and people are telling you their own experience says otherwise, only to have you argue with them. Conley already made you back down anyway. It's over.

I said I liked hexes better and explained why. I didn't "claim they offer an advantage over real maps" or any of that other nonsense you manufactured.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777352bollocks.

It's still OK that you don't like hexes, but your repeated insistence that the only reason anyone ever uses hexes is due to tradition is silly and continuing to insist on that point in despite of what other people say about why they use hexes makes you sound really, really silly.

I've used hexes, squares and no-tiles and all work equally as well.

Hexes allow for movement in six directions, but squares allow 8, if you allow diagonal movement. Both are useful for working out movement where terrain is a factor (Forest hexes cost 1.,5 times movement, for example).

To be honest, unless a map has hexes, I just use a rule of thumb that the party can travel a certain distance in a day. We measure using hand-spans, most of the time.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777117Dude you like hexes I get it no point us arguing about it.

Yes but do you now understand there are other practical reasons for using hexes other than it "traditional" or as you put it above "I like hexes".

Likewise I understand why you and others don't need or find hexes useful.

Quote from: Bren;777507It's still OK that you don't like hexes, but your repeated insistence that the only reason anyone ever uses hexes is due to tradition is silly and continuing to insist on that point in despite of what other people say about why they use hexes makes you sound really, really silly.

Yes its silly but its silly because I keep on trying to argue logically with people who are emotionally invested in things.
I stopped the discussion with Estar because it was obvious from his responses that it was emotion talking not logic and its impossible to win an emotional argument over an internet forum.
 
There are lots of logical reasons using hex maps is not necessary. I was taught geography by soe of the best teachers in the UK. Then I went on to read geography in the first UK university to set up a Chair in the subject then I went to to learn now to teach geography in the oldest university in the UK and a globally recognised centre of excellence for such things. I then went on to teach geography at high school. To geographers maps are our key tools, they are like saws to carpenters or hammers to French car mechanics. The basic tools of the trade.
The very first lesson kids at UK high schools do in geography, when they are 11, is to learn the importance of maps. How to read maps, how to draw maps, how to use maps.
There are some basic rules

i. All maps must have a key, a scale and an orientation
ii. The media of the map shouldn't be allowed to influence the map if it does then you fundamentally change people's perceptions of space - see Mercator vs Phillips or Meridian centred vs IDL centred global projections
iii. The grid is for locating things on the map
iv. The scale is for measuring distances on a map

There is nothing wrong with using hex maps if you like them but it is just a personal preference they are not superior and have a few issues.

a. The hex space colours the map and it becomes defined by hexes - you all know what this means as we see it all the time hex shaped forests and rivers that follow hex edges.
b. Hex maps are weak at working out locations because you can't divide a hex. With a grid you can subdivide each "square" which is why you have 6 figure grid references as well as 4 figure grid references
c. Using the hexes as a scale only works because the map has been drawn to the grid a "real" map doesn't benefit from this. Look at the below example of a mountain path.  



If I placed this in a hex grid it doesn't change the length of the road and due to the windiness of the road the abstraction of hexes serves us no good. Just learn to use the scale. this is something 11 years old learn it's not a difficult thing and it takes moments to do.
Estar in his example says he would need a map wheel to accurately measure a distance without hexes yet he is prepared to use the rough and ready measure of hexes all the rest of the time. So effectively he is happy with a rough unit if there are hexes but needs a really accurate measure without ...that makes no sense.

Anyway I am done on this as people seem to be as emotionally invested in hex maps as they are in third rate line drawings of Orcus

Thank you for providing that map. It will illustrate the utility of using hexes quite nicely



It has a small scale so we are forced to use an odd measurement for a hex. One-eighth of a mile or 660 feet per hex. When I drew this over top of the image it each hex measured from top to bottom 0.365 inches. The purple path I drew over the original map path measured 6.027 inches. Making the true length of the path, if you hiked it, 10,899 feet or 2.06 miles.

At a game table you could have a device with a wheel that you could roll along to measure the true length of anything on the map. But that not a common piece of equipment a person is likely to possess.

The virtue of a hex grid is that from each hex there are circles of hexes surrounding it out to an arbitrary distance. This makes it very useful to measure distance quickly from a center hex to an arbitrary point.

So what if you have a hex filled with winding paths inside the hexes. Well if I counted up the hexes that the path touches it comes out to 13 hexes or 1.625 miles. (the red numbers) Not very close to its true distance. However if I double counted (or even triple count) hexes (the blue numbers) with particularly convoluted paths. Then I get about 17 hexes or 2.125 much closer to the true distance of 2.064 miles.

Like any tool you need to use your best judgement in using this. In this case you need to estimate by sight whenever a convoluted path inside of a hex means you double or triple count it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683There are lots of logical reasons using hex maps is not necessary. I was taught geography by soe of the best teachers in the UK. Then I went on to read geography in the first UK university to set up a Chair in the subject then I went to to learn now to teach geography in the oldest university in the UK and a globally recognised centre of excellence for such things. I then went on to teach geography at high school. To geographers maps are our key tools, they are like saws to carpenters or hammers to French car mechanics. The basic tools of the trade.

And while Indiana University of Pennsylvania is not as prestigious as the oldest university in the UK it has a decent geography department which I happened to minor in while studying for my computer science degree. Aside from personal interest, I was a honors student in high school in geography, I figure it would a practical application for my programming skills. Because programming is a means to an end. To make the computer useful for a particular purpose. In mid 80s computer technology was starting to impact geography in a big way.
 

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683i. All maps must have a key, a scale and an orientation
ii. The media of the map shouldn't be allowed to influence the map if it does then you fundamentally change people's perceptions of space - see Mercator vs Phillips or Meridian centred vs IDL centred global projections
iii. The grid is for locating things on the map
iv. The scale is for measuring distances on a map

What I don't see mentioned here or in the proceeding paragraph is that geography is not just about the accurate rendering of the surface of the earth on a flat surface. Geography is also about using maps to convey information. Information that related to geography like population density, traffic patterns, crime, wealth, etc.

I was taught at IUP to understand what information the maps meant to convey and draw it accordingly using best practices for the information that was needed to be displayed.

What we are discussing here is the use of geography as it related to gaming a setting within a tabletop roleplaying campaign. A leisure activity. My goal is to make the map as accurate as possible, convey as much information as possible within the constraint that it is being used as tool during a tabletop roleplaying. So it is essential that it is easily and quickly used.

Using what I learned in my geography minor I picked the elements of mapping to create maps that I felt made for excellent gaming references. I guess I am doing something right because people are buying my maps. And I marvel that they are buying my maps despite the fact they don't look like they are drawn by an artist.

The point isn't to map the surface of Greyhawk accurate, the point is to convey the geography of Greyhawk in a way that it is both accurate AND quickly referee by a referee who is bantering with four to eight other individuals around a table.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683a. The hex space colours the map and it becomes defined by hexes - you all know what this means as we see it all the time hex shaped forests and rivers that follow hex edges.

Yes the gaming cartographer has to discipline himself not to follow the hex edges. I personally have two mapping styles, one uses hexes and hex system similar Judges Guild Wilderlands. The hex grid influences geography a lot using that style.

The other style was inspired by the map of Harn and that is not influenced by hexes. The maps is drawn first and the hex are overlaid afterwards. This is due the fact I don't use symbols for any terrain or vegetation. Instead I use fills for terrain and color for vegetation which allows me to draw the edge as they would appear in real life.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683b. Hex maps are weak at working out locations because you can't divide a hex. With a grid you can subdivide each "square" which is why you have 6 figure grid references as well as 4 figure grid references

That is not true. Judges Guild worked out a system to subdivide a hex back in 1977. In the real world you don't use hexes because we are mapping a oblate sphere onto a flat surface. A sphere that is divided into longitude and latitude. So trend is to use grid.

In gaming during the 70s hexes were found to be enormously useful to create playable wargames that accurately measured distance and area. Because this occurred alongside the development of tabletop RPGs it crossed over.

Look up Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon mapping system. It used a series of 5 mile, .2 mile, and 44 foot hexes to created a system of nested hexes that allow mapping from the campaign view down to a local view of a settlement or locale.

I wrote a popular blog spot on the ins and outs of mapping with hexes.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/12/more-mapping-with-hexes.html

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683Anyway I am done on this as people seem to be as emotionally invested in hex maps as they are in third rate line drawings of Orcus

To be blunt you need to pull your head of your academic asshole.  In my opinion your deep knowledge of the topic is leaving you blind to what is useful to the average gamer. You have skills honed by years of academic study and map use, making reading real world maps second nature.

This is not true of the average gamer. They need aides and the right presentation to make a map useful to them for gaming. For what is a leisure activity.

When it comes to making maps for the Ordinance Survey, for the local planning council or for the military, you are the expert. When it comes to making usable and accurate maps for gaming, I been at it continuously for 30 years. Including manufacturing by hand my own maps in the 80s and learning how to use computers to draw maps starting in the 90s. I been selling professionally for the last decade.

Quit using the emotion dodge and own up to the fact that when comes to making maps for gaming you are not the expert in the topic.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683Yes its silly but its silly because I keep on trying to argue logically with people who are emotionally invested in things.

Quote from: jibbajibba;777683Anyway I am done on this as people seem to be as emotionally invested in hex maps

Do you people really take this fool seriously?