Quote from: JRR;771850Naked was a metaphor, I seriously doubt an ogre and his kobold minions are interested in pc's clothing.  It's the armor and magical gear, they want.  The players are free to try and parley, and they did try, but the ogre wasn't having any.  He was cocky, and confident his 112 minions could easily take the party and what did he care for the loss of a few score kobolds?  They are easily replaceable.  

And 5th level wizards do not cast meteor swarm.

Well I know I would be running back to the dungeon to find a chokepoint or just charm the Ogre if they didn't want to talk. I do think the scenerio is silly though and very hamfisted.

Quote from: Marleycat;771857Well I know I would be running back to the dungeon to find a chokepoint or just charm the Ogre if they didn't want to talk. I do think the scenerio is silly though and very hamfisted.

The ambush was a good half a mile or more from the dungeon.  There was a bit of cover, gravestones and such.  Charming the ogre would have worked, instead the paladin charged and they killed him in one round.  The kobolds got off one volley, and fled.  Mounts died, magic user and shukenja almost died, the warriors took some damage and that was it.  It was not some huge screwjob like you are accusing me of.  

Anyways, this is getting way off topic, apologies for the thread getting hijacked.

Quote from: Will;771842I like games where you can just straight up say 'hey, I'm going to be putting you in a tight spot, here are some points as compensation, are we cool?'

Fate compels, and I hazily remember something along those lines in Buffy Unisystem.

Otherwise, it can bring up bad blood about GM/player power balance.

Thats great for story based systems.

But in games when the narrative can go fuck itself and this is just what is happening in the world right now it is simply deal with the situation as it unfolds or don't play.

I think you can infer from my use of 'I like' that I think strict 'deal with whatever I tell you or get out' games can go fuck themselves.

Quote from: Will;771842I like games where you can just straight up say 'hey, I'm going to be putting you in a tight spot, here are some points as compensation, are we cool?'

Fuck that shit. If you don't want your characters to be in tight spots, let them stay at home. The game world doesn't exist to be "fair" or mollycoddle characters. If you character is in a tight spot,deal with it.

I'm not opposed to fate points, or their use as a last-ditch survival mechanism, but you should have to do more than simply turn up to the game and want to have them.

In case it was missed, I'm talking about stuff that smacks (or is completely) GM fiat. Like 'you wake up naked, shackled below decks on a slave barge.'

Stuff that feels like GM bullshit 'this happens 'cause.'

Quote from: Will;771885In case it was missed, I'm talking about stuff that smacks (or is completely) GM fiat. Like 'you wake up naked, shackled below decks on a slave barge.'

Stuff that feels like GM bullshit 'this happens 'cause.'

What can be tricky, is when events in the game would lead to that, but the players have not deduced why it happened yet.


However, I agree in general, that a gm should not humiliate the characters just out of sadism.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;771852I'll just say 100 archers vs a party is kind of a silly thing anyway.

You know what a group of 5 adventurers do if they fight 100 archers without cover while the archers have the high ground. They die. Period.

Nahhh, it's D&D, that sort of thing is the kind of over-the-top danger a mid-to-high-level group may well endure from time to time and live to tell about it, though hopefully they don't want to repeat it regularly. You need a lower-power game if you really think this business should be entirely out of the question.

Quote from: Will;771885In case it was missed, I'm talking about stuff that smacks (or is completely) GM fiat. Like 'you wake up naked, shackled below decks on a slave barge.'

Stuff that feels like GM bullshit 'this happens 'cause.'

Oh, yeah, that's generally going to be rubbish, unless there's a logical chain of events leading up to it, or you're doing something like an episodic sword and sorcery game.

Quote from: Imp;771889Nahhh, it's D&D, that sort of thing is the kind of over-the-top danger a mid-to-high-level group may well endure from time to time and live to tell about it, though hopefully they don't want to repeat it regularly. You need a lower-power game if you really think this business should be entirely out of the question.

Bounded accuracy in 5e keeps those 100 kobolds dangerous.

Also, its funny that people want to decry certain editions as "fantasy superheroes" while at the same time thinking that in their preferred editions, the PCs should be facing 100 archers, with no good choke point in site, and it not be a near automatic TPK.

If you got the drop on them, and they were marching in tight formation, and you had a spellcaster or two with nice aoe spells, you would stand a chance. But otherwise you really shouldn't be able to take them on, and if you do, that does smack of fantasy superheroes.

a) that's pretty much a case of where you want to draw the line; if 100 kobold archers spell death but 50 are just dangerous, would I revolt? Probably not

b) sounds like 5e would be an improvement for you, then

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;771425I don't get it. I mean "I get it" as far as it speeds up play and smooths over aspects of the game, I suppose.

There are several features of the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic:

(1) It doesn't require any math. Just pick up a second die and roll it. IME, this is universally faster than a modifier. (This makes the mechanic more likely to be used.)

(2) Rolling extra dice is fun and (arguably) more notable than a +2 or -2 circumstance modifier. (This encourages players to actively seek out sources of advantage, which helps to make play interesting and specific to the situation.)

(3) It's conveniently capped: Multiple sources of advantage/disadvantage don't stack. (I have some issues with the logic of this, but the upside is that GMs and scenario designers can be liberal in awarding advantage/disadvantage without worrying about weird stacking exploits.)

(4) It also doesn't change the potential range of your roll: Advantage makes it more likely that you will succeed at stuff you can normally succeed at, but doesn't mean that you can suddenly do stuff that would otherwise be impossible.

The net result of all this is that the concept is a really useful mechanical hook that can be used in lots of different ways. It also contributes substantially to maintaining the bounded accuracy that's a major selling point of 5E's design.

Good Grief, I hope they have a better selling point than that.  At the very least they should make a point of the fact that there are wizards and dragons in the game.  :]

Dungeons & Bounded Accuracy just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;771957Bounded accuracy in 5e keeps those 100 kobolds dangerous.
.

With pack tactics, they're downright deadly.  Every one of those kobolds would get +5 bonus to hit (pack tactics grants +1 to hit for every ally within the area, up to +5).  With bounded accuracy, a +5 bonus to hit is huge.  Can you say pincushion?

I suppose they could have nerfed it like they did with the goblin's bushwacker trait, but I hope not.

Quote from: JRR;771850Naked was a metaphor, I seriously doubt an ogre and his kobold minions are interested in pc's clothing.  It's the armor and magical gear, they want.  The players are free to try and parley, and they did try, but the ogre wasn't having any.  He was cocky, and confident his 112 minions could easily take the party and what did he care for the loss of a few score kobolds?  They are easily replaceable.  

And 5th level wizards do not cast meteor swarm.

I don't think its a dick move, if there are 100 kobold then there are 100 kobolds. However they woudl have fuck all use for armour they can't wear and I suspect taking the party's clothes and eating them all woudl probably be the better option.

I still wouldn't roll 100d20 though  cos its fucking tedious