Quote from: JRR;771676Sometimes you have no choice.  In this case they were ambushed as they left the dungeon.  Well, they did have a choice - hand over everything they own and walk away naked.

Makes sense but you do know I as a player will get you back in some way in game down the line for that dick move? Never giving a chance for parley is just asinine. As I said give me context (what level am I? What class am I? What race am I? Because if I'm a Warlock or Sorcerer or Bard with the right party mix I may teach you a lesson instead of you doing so).

Quote from: Raven;771433I maintain that rolling two dice is twice as fun as rolling one. The internet loves to talk about excess dice-rolling "slowing down gameplay" and other made-up theorywank horseshit that I don't buy. A 3-man Taco Bell run slows down a game; a few extra die rolls doesn't effect anyone on a perceptible level, except for the poor wretched assholes who read your whiny RPGnet thread afterwards.

Advantage/disadvantage turns the old staid +/- penalty into a real-world mechanic that translates directly into dice in hand, which is exciting on the player side. Instead of tossing a die and doing  1st grade math, you're tossing TWO dice and eff the math!

I like rolling dice and I think the vast majority of roleplayers do as well. As such I support even more such mechanics, including rerolls, rolling lesser dice and adding, etc.

Just one man's opinion.

Sheesh, i'm late for this...

I manages to agree and disagree at the same time:

Excess die-rolling DO slow down gameplay.
However.
So do at-the-table-math.
And if the extra die is rolled at the same time as the original, then the die-rolling is not excessive, as I see it.
And if it is followed up by the simple mechanic "Take Highest/Lowest" instead of math, then it is not much slower at all, and it is clearly faster than those that follows up with Math.

So, the example given is clearly faster, because the "Excess dierolling" really isn't excessive, and the math is decreased.

Quote from: JRR;771684Ambushed on a hilltop from range.  No flanking, ranks or otherwise.  Just 100 short bows at a rate of fire of 2.  I rolled 10d20 10 times, kept note of the hits.  High ground grants a +1 to hit, so they'd all have advantage instead, meaning I'd have to reroll all the misses, which would be most of the rolls due to the pcs relatively high ac.  And then do it all over again on the secondary attacks.  Way too much hassle.  

I don't use AOOs and rarely a grid.

I would do the same thing that I do for large numbers of enemies in classic D&D:

roll in groups, the size depending on the total number of troops. So if there were 100 kobolds on a hill I would have them shoot in volleys of 10.

10 attack rolls with advantage. Easy as pie.

I used the same kind of system when I adapted and ran Master of the Desert Nomads for 3.0. There were 80 bandits attacking a large caravan. Ten groups of eight worked out just fine.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;771710I would treat 100 archers firing like a large damage area of effect spell with a dexterity save for half damage rather than individual attacks.

I sorta like this.

I would also use the target's AC to determine % that hits, to then figure damage to save against. Like unmodified attacks v. AC 4, a.k.a AC 16, is 20% success. Then that result times the damage roll average, save for half.

i.e. AC 4 is 20% of 100 attacks of 1d6 arrows. Thus 20 attacks by 3.5, or 70 damage, save for half.

Quote from: Opaopajr;771754I sorta like this.

I would also use the target's AC to determine % that hits, to then figure damage to save against. Like unmodified attacks v. AC 4, a.k.a AC 16, is 20% success. Then that result times the damage roll average, save for half.

i.e. AC 4 is 20% of 100 attacks of 1d6 arrows. Thus 20 attacks by 3.5, or 70 damage, save for half.

I would probably have just done 20d6. Mostly because its fun to roll an absurd amount of dice occasionally. Also, because if you are getting peppered by 100 archers, you done fucked up, and there is something satisfying about illustrating how fucked up they got by rolling a ton of dice.

Quote from: JRR;771600It's a shit mechanic.  For instance, a while back in my 1e game, the pcs fought an ogre who had coerced a trribe of kobolds into sending him 100 warriors.  How the hell do I run that if they have advantage or disadvantage?  I can't just roll a handful of dice using the ADHD mechanic.

Add +4 or +5. With a 100 opponents it is close enough. If you want to be exact about it just make a chart with the equivalent bonus based on the actual chance of success and use that. In the end it boils down to the numbers.

For example in most editions of Runequest doesn't depend on the exact percentage of a skill. Most of the mechanics treat everything in +5% increments. Yes I know there are some, like skill improvement, that don't. This means you could play Runequest exactly how it written by using a d20. It may not be satisfying as a d100 but the odd will be the same.

The same thing with this. It all boils down to the odds. If the actual mechanism of generating those odds proves cumbersome in a given circumstances than it needs to be changed to keep the game going. It is fair because you are still using the same chance of success (or failure) but in a different way to speed up play.

A lot of games have rules for treating groups as single monsters.

Torg, for example, gave groups a bonus to defense and attack, with the bonuses dropping as you killed individuals (naturally).

Personally, as a GM, I have no interest in rolling more than the entire rest of the group.

Quote from: Marleycat;771719Makes sense but you do know I as a player will get you back in some way in game down the line for that dick move? Never giving a chance for parley is just asinine. As I said give me context (what level am I? What class am I? What race am I? Because if I'm a Warlock or Sorcerer or Bard with the right party mix I may teach you a lesson instead of you doing so).

A dick move?  First of all, they had there chance at a parley.  Throw down everything you own and walk away, they get to live.  Ogres and kobolds are not known for compromise, at least in any game I've ever played in.  It was not a lesson.  It was merely one encounter, and one right out of the adventure module.  Fame has consequences.  Besides, killing the ogre forced a morale check anyway.

I can't just roll a handful of D20's, whether it's 5 or 100.  Each roll has to be tracked.  If it's 5 orcs, I can't just roll 10 d20 and take the best 5.

Quote from: JRR;771828A dick move?  First of all, they had there chance at a parley.  Throw down everything you own and walk away, they get to live.  Ogres and kobolds are not known for compromise, at least in any game I've ever played in.  It was not a lesson.  It was merely one encounter, and one right out of the adventure module.  Fame has consequences.

As I said you did not supply context. I told you straight up in that situation I would not be fighting I would be parlaying or something else. So no you wouldn't have stripped me naked.

The only scenerios more trite then "you meet in a bar" is "you're in a jail cell completely naked or chained to a dungeon wall completely naked...". Followed closely by 'you are seriously outnumbered and no you cannot parley". I suppose the wizard to meteor storm the whole thing but that's a pretty dumb solution to the situation in my opinion.

I like games where you can just straight up say 'hey, I'm going to be putting you in a tight spot, here are some points as compensation, are we cool?'

Fate compels, and I hazily remember something along those lines in Buffy Unisystem.

Otherwise, it can bring up bad blood about GM/player power balance.

Quote from: Will;771842I like games where you can just straight up say 'hey, I'm going to be putting you in a tight spot, here are some points as compensation, are we cool?'

Fate compels, and I hazily remember something along those lines in Buffy Unisystem.

Otherwise, it can bring up bad blood about GM/player power balance.

GM has all the power.

GM avoids asshattery.

Works great.

Quote from: Marleycat;771840As I said you did not supply context. I told you straight up in that situation I would not be fighting I would be parlaying or something else. So no you wouldn't have stripped me naked.

The only scenerios more trite then "you meet in a bar" is "you're in a jail cell completely naked or chained to a dungeon wall completely naked...". Followed closely by 'you are seriously outnumbered and no you cannot parley". I suppose the wizard to meteor storm the whole thing but that's a pretty dumb solution to the situation in my opinion.

Naked was a metaphor, I seriously doubt an ogre and his kobold minions are interested in pc's clothing.  It's the armor and magical gear, they want.  The players are free to try and parley, and they did try, but the ogre wasn't having any.  He was cocky, and confident his 112 minions could easily take the party and what did he care for the loss of a few score kobolds?  They are easily replaceable.  

And 5th level wizards do not cast meteor swarm.

I'll just say 100 archers vs a party is kind of a silly thing anyway.

You know what a group of 5 adventurers do if they fight 100 archers without cover while the archers have the high ground. They die. Period.

The idea that this is something characters should be able to survive at all is dumb (and if the system allows it as an actual thing rather than a fluke, I think its a bit bonkers).

The right idea in the situation would be to run back into the dungeon, make the kobolds try to take you inside, where their numbers aren't as much of an overwhelming advantage. The truth is, if you ever let them get 100 shots off at you in a round, you've made a huge mistake.

Quote from: Will;771842I like games where you can just straight up say 'hey, I'm going to be putting you in a tight spot, here are some points as compensation, are we cool?'

Fate compels, and I hazily remember something along those lines in Buffy Unisystem.

Otherwise, it can bring up bad blood about GM/player power balance.

That is fine. I was in the situation in 2e but the GM had already taken me aside and explained the what the deal was going to be. Given it literally took my character from a multiclass F/M to just a single class fighter for multiple sessions. And in 2e that isn't a small thing.

I did send a dnd party to the Nine Hells naked in one campaign.

But the players adapted; instead of complaining about lost magic items, they ambushed some abishai devils, and skinned them with the devils own weapons to make leather armor.

Fortunately they had a monk or they would have had to spend precious spells that could not be regained with no spellbook and inability to regain priest spells in Hell.

That game was a blast as the characters rebuilt their power adventuring in Hell.