I picked up the 2003 (1st?) ed. years ago because it was on sale and I loved Hensley's Fields of Honor 19th c. miniatures rules - but never got around actually to playing SW.

Now I'm thinking it might be worth a try with my regular game group. I would have some pregens ready, because for these guys the character design would probably be a turnoff initially. The game systems would no doubt seem very strange at  first, but hopefully they would be familiar enough after a couple of sessions. The more I can handle mechanics "transparently," the better for most of the players.

To avoid cases in which a "better" trait yields a worse chance of success, I propose to ignore a point of penalty in the following:
D6-2 = d6-1
D8-4 = d8-3
D10-6 = d10-5
D12-8 = d12-7

This group is not into the superhero genre, but I may have some thoughts on factors more related to that because it interests me (and I'm in no hurry to buy another book). I'm not sure I want to do more swords and sorcery,  but that may be the best way to introduce a new system.

Any advice from seasoned (or Veteran, heh) players/GMs?

Personal opinion is that Savage Worlds doesn't do superheroes that well. Its really the one genre I hate trying to attempt with it.

Also on the math thing: its very minor, and even where it does happen (which is 1 difficulty number per die) you still have a better chance of crit succeeding and not crit failing on a higher die.

BUT, if you really want to avoid it, the easiest way to do it is to have any "aced" die have a minus 1 on its reroll. So for instance, if you rolled a 4 on a d4, when you reroll, you add 1d4-1 to it instead of the full 1d4.

As said above I don't think it's a good ruleset for superheroes (unless you mean "street level" superheroes : Punisher, Black Widow, Batman, etc.).

To introduce the game system to your group I'd go for a 1930s pulp game. You will have everything you need to do that in the core book (and there is a scenario on the Pinnacle website : The Eye of Kilquato

I GMed different campaigns for the last 5 years, my advice is just to play the game "as is" at least once before tweaking the rules.

And you can get the latest edition for just 9,99$, the rules are cleaned-up and you have a bit more options.

If the game "clicks" with your group, go for the adventure deck. It's really a game changer, my players want an adventure deck in almost every game we play now

I love universal systems, and have used SW to run multiple genres.  I would love to like it more, but I just can't.   As you identified,  the dice are wonkey at times.  Also the rules for  ranged combat seems tailored to modeling normal humans vs bullets and we gamers seldom expect our heroes to be incapable of reacting to ranged attacks.  The exploding dice is less of an issue but frequently kills characters in the least-fun way, IME.

It's a charming system with a loyal fanbase, but some of the gaming concepts it is designed to displace are there for a reason.

It doesn't do "Realistic" very well, it doesn't do superheroes very well... but it does the pulpy middle ground of Robert E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, old tough-guy movies, 80's men's paperback vigilantes, 2000 AD Punk-SF, American ninja, and 70's cop shows very, very well.

The dice wonkiness was never a problem when I played it (But then, I thrive on randomness and unpredictability). I would strongly second the poster above's recommendation to try the system "Straight" before popping the hood -I once played in a SW game where the GM tried to "Fix" it and it was a grueling slog... the system is a finer-tuned engine than it may at first appear.

Quote from: Phillip;763386This group is not into the superhero genre, but I may have some thoughts on factors more related to that because it interests me (and I'm in no hurry to buy another book). I'm not sure I want to do more swords and sorcery,  but that may be the best way to introduce a new system.

I love Savage Worlds, but in my experience vanilla or D&D-esque fantasy is about the worst possible use of it.  Every time I've seen it tried there's one or more players trying to play combats like they're playing D&D.  Swinging swords every round instead of trying tricks and tests of will, then getting frustrated when that doesn't work (which it especially doesn't against tough opponents like main villains or tough monsters).  

For an intro run I'd look for something that explicitly calls for swashbuckling and using the environment over attacks.  Robin Hood a la Erol Flynn, pirates of the Spanish Main, or just about any genre of action pulp.

On the other hand, if by "swords and sorcery" you mean sword and sandals, Conan-the-movie-not-the-books, Beastmaster, et al, then by all means carry on.

I have yet to run superheroes with SW but I suspect it'll do a fine job of it because the baseline assumptions that most people regard as "pulp" hew so close to pre-Iron Age four-color superhero comics.

I'm inclined to agree that it probably does a poor job of handling cosmic-level high-powered stuff (a la Superman, Darkseid, Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, etc.) but if you're running a low- to mid-power level game (say, your average X-Men or derivative comic), and keep appearances by cosmic heavyweights to a minimum, it should do the trick.

I agree with what's been said:  great system at nearly every genre, but not supers.  It works for for pulpy games or for more realistic games, it just requires a bit of tuning.  Drop the Wild Die for realistic games - easy enough.

As for the statistic oddity, it is extremely minor, and only for specific situations.  If the game was "hit the exact target number", then it would matter (slightly) more.  But since raises matter a great deal, the statistical oddity fades away.  Character ability is much more based on Edges than on die type.  Having a +2 to a roll tends to be more important than an increase in die type, plus all the other effects of dice.

After running it for years, my two complaints are:  1)  The power system is bland, and 2) I'd rather have hit points than Wounds.  There's actually a decent way to switch to Hit Points with minimal impact on the system, and I'd still be using the system if that were my only issue.  However, the Power system requires too much of an overhaul to be worth it, and the creators don't see a problem with it.

Still, I highly recommend it to anyone.

Quote from: Saladman;763432I love Savage Worlds, but in my experience vanilla or D&D-esque fantasy is about the worst possible use of it.

It definitely plays a bit different than D&D, but once players switch their thinking a bit, I've found it great for fantasy.  I ran a pathfinder adventure path (Rise of the Runelords) using Savage Worlds and it was awesome.

Quote from: Obeeron;763444As for the statistic oddity, it is extremely minor, and only for specific situations.  If the game was "hit the exact target number", then it would matter (slightly) more.  But since raises matter a great deal, the statistical oddity fades away.  Character ability is much more based on Edges than on die type.  Having a +2 to a roll tends to be more important than an increase in die type, plus all the other effects of dice.

IMO it's the raise that causes the worst oddities by itself.  Particularly considering how the TN is always (always) 4.  So d6 is not only capable of consistently hitting that all by itself,  but it's also more likely to raise than a d8.  Plus you get a d6 on everything you do because you're a PC.

Caveat: I am absolutely certain that a math boffin has calculations proving me wrong, but having actually observed this in action I remain unswayed by those arguments.

To me the most unique/useful aspect of Savage Worlds is that it's designed from top to bottom for adults with careers and families.  Most of the games I loved as a teenager/early-20something are unplayable now (hi Shadowrun!) because we just don't have 2 hours for character creation or a whole night to dedicate to one combat.  My only complaint with Savage Worlds is the lack of granularity, since there are only 5 die types measuring the entire range of aptitude.  I'm tinkering with a heavy modification that implements zocchi dice to fill out the range, and -1 on exploding dice to fix the probabilities.

Anyone interested in the math for Savage Worlds can copy/paste whichever pieces below they want to anydice.com.



output [explode d4] named "d4"
output [explode d6] named "d6"
output [explode d8] named "d8"
output [explode d10] named "d10"
output [explode d12] named "d12"
output [highest of [explode d4] and  [explode d6]] named "d4 wild"
output [highest of [explode d6] and  [explode d6]] named "d6 wild"
output [highest of [explode d8] and  [explode d6]] named "d8 wild"
output [highest of [explode d10] and  [explode d6]] named "d10 wild"
output [highest of [explode d12] and  [explode d6]] named "d12 wild"
output [explode d4]+2 named "d4+2"
output [explode d6]+2 named "d6+2"
output [explode d8]+2 named "d8+2"
output [explode d10]+2 named "d10+2"
output [explode d12]+2 named "d12+2"
output [highest of [explode d4] and  [explode d6]]+2 named "d4 wild +2"
output [highest of [explode d6] and  [explode d6]]+2 named "d6 wild +2"
output [highest of [explode d8] and  [explode d6]]+2 named "d8 wild +2"
output [highest of [explode d10] and  [explode d6]]+2 named "d10 wild +2"
output [highest of [explode d12] and  [explode d6]]+2 named "d12 wild +2"

Combat in Savage Worlds can be very swingy. I've lost two player characters over the last two sessions because of exploding dice.

The first was the result of seven successive exploding d6s on damage. The character was being chased and had a low Toughness, so it only makes sense he would die.

The second was against a Fish-Bear, a monster with a monstrous damage of d12+d8. He was very tanky, but even with the best armor and high toughness, he went down after the d12 element of the die exploded three times. He tried to save himself with a Benny and failed.

I've cooked up a house rule very similar to Warhammer Fantasy RP fate points. When you die, you can lose a Benny and be knocked out instead of dead. The character still suffers the effects of Injuries and healing time. Often at times,  it's better to just let the character die. As well, after every major adventure, a character can regain a lose Benny.

Quote from: Saladman;763432I love Savage Worlds, but in my experience vanilla or D&D-esque fantasy is about the worst possible use of it.  Every time I've seen it tried there's one or more players trying to play combats like they're playing D&D.  Swinging swords every round instead of trying tricks and tests of will, then getting frustrated when that doesn't work (which it especially doesn't against tough opponents like main villains or tough monsters).

I think this is a general gamer thing, though.  Using GURPS, my players are prone to do the exact same thing: tinkerhammering rather than trying more than the occasional use of the numerous maneuvers available.  It's not even as if they're unfamiliar with GURPS -- the novice in the group's been playing GURPS for five years, and he's the only one playing GURPS for less than a decade.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;763528Combat in Savage Worlds can be very swingy.

Ah, didn't take long for that tired old gripe to surface. Is RQ swingy? There's a chance in any combat that someone is going to roll 01, and then it's a crit and very likely game over. And yet everyone I know raves about how great and 'realistic' RQ and all of the other derivatives (CoC, Stormbringer etc) is. So why is the exploding dice and extremely minor probability issue seized upon with glee by people as evidence that SW is borked?

SW can handle plenty of styles with the tweaks in the Deluxe edition. But it plays nothing like D&D - hence the generally good advice not to start with fantasy. I honestly think too many people think that because it is 'pulpy' (which is a shit term IMO) PCs are nigh invulnerable and the stand and toe it out style of DnD combat will work fine; it won't, there is a decent tactical level to combat. And hey, whatever happened to 'fight only as a last resort'? You wouldn't expect to get away with it in an OSR game, so if you get your ass handed to you in a fight you shouldn't have gotten into then maybe you should have been more careful.