Quote from: Bobloblah;762141You're wrong. It does happen in game, just not by the players, because players get to choose what their characters do. Players are there to have a good time, whether that's by fightin' stuff, meddling in others' bidness, or generally making a nuisance of themselves. NPCs? Not so much.

The assumptions of one's ruleset can presumably have an impact on the setting. I know you're not entirely blind to this, as I've seen you post about AD&D's implied setting before. For some people this is more important than for others. I get that you think it's unimportant. That's fine. For you. On the other hand, you seem blind to the fact that it might not be okay for someone else. That's not theoretical at all. One of many reasons I appreciate ACKS as much as I do and play it to the exclusion of other versions of the game is that it actually looks very carefully at what some of these implications are and accounts for them (e.g. why aren't castles just built by Walls of Stone? Why aren't magic items mass produced and sold? How many 5th level Clerics are there in a decent sized city? How many light infantry can you hire in a month?).

For me, unlimited Cantrips of a certain sort (e.g. Ray of Frost) cross the line. They imply something considerably different about the setting from earlier versions of the game (lets ignore 4e, considering you're on record as having no more use for it than I do). This isn't the first time this has happened, either. 3.x did something quite similar with the rules surrounding magic item creation. Magic items (using RAW) became much more common. In that case it took the players actually doing it for me to realise how significant the changes were.

For purposes of discussion, I agree.  4e is off the table.  I think we both consider that an anomaly to the traditional D&D game world.

And for disclosure, none of the 5e games I've played in (the first real version I played that had at will powers), was the ability to be able to do them whenever actually used to cast them all the time.  I.e., they were not a distraction to the game play at all.

Additionally, I can completely understand how and why the existence of unlimited cantrips crosses the line with you.  I'm not a huge fan of them myself, as I have argued in the past when 4e came out.  But I think that is a personal preference issue, rather than a game breaking rules issue.  The way I'm looking at it is that every edition has had caster be able to do some really powerful stuff that can easily be gamebreaking, but they don't.  Why?  Better things to do I guess.  According to the rules of what casters can do, the game world would quickly turn into an area where casters are just messing with everything on regional scales.  But that doesn't happen because DMs typically don't have the caster NPCs do that sort of thing, and player PC mages typically don't tell the DM, "During our down time, I cast disintigrate, move earth, rock to mud spells every day at the local gold mine.

So basically, I don't see how minor at will spells are considered game breaking when every other edition has even more game breaking possibilities in it, and thus is why I consider it more of a personal preference issue.

All that being said, because of how discussions have been going in the past month, I want to be very clear in that I am in no way saying you should just houserule at will cantrips and stop complaining.  You're either going to be OK with it, OK with houseruling it, or just won't play the game because it's too much and screws with what you want.  Either way is OK because it's you who has to have fun, so do so paying the game you want.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;762138robiswrong is right to talk about opportunity cost.  

Using up all of my spells everyday (when I might be attacked, or might need to heal someone) has a high opportunity cost.  But even if I did use all of my spells everyday, the impact to the setting is small if the number of people able to use these spells is small.  A few dozen high-level wizards might be able to deliver important parcels 'next day air' like Fed-Ex if they didn't need their teleport for something else.  

A cleric creating 48 gallons of water in the Sahara, even daily, isn't going to do much.

If they are instead able to cast the spell 11,520 times (16 hours @ 1/6 seconds), producing 46,080 gallons daily, that's going to make a big difference.

I think the latter is a straw man assertion, since no one has said that create water is (or should be) an at-will cantrip.

That said, I think 48 gallons of water a day could have a huge impact. For example, in the history of exploration and navigation, having water was a huge difference that was the determining factor on whether an expedition could continue and/or succeed.

It seems a toss-up to me whether 48 gallons of water a day would have a greater world effect than Ray of Frost at will.

Generally speaking, I think that there are a number spells that would have a huge impact on society, even if cast daily. Plant Growth is a good example of a high-impact spell, for example.

Quote from: jhkim;762155I think the latter is a straw man assertion, since no one has said that create water is (or should be) an at-will cantrip.

That said, I think 48 gallons of water a day could have a huge impact. For example, in the history of exploration and navigation, having water was a huge difference that was the determining factor on whether an expedition could continue and/or succeed.

It seems a toss-up to me whether 48 gallons of water a day would have a greater world effect than Ray of Frost at will.

Generally speaking, I think that there are a number spells that would have a huge impact on society, even if cast daily. Plant Growth is a good example of a high-impact spell, for example.

It is in Pathfinder.

Here is another point.

If a cleric can create water or irrigate a desert.

Then what is to prevent evil clerics and mages from laying waste to huge areas with simple spells or even more havoc with higher order ones.

In one of the Blackmoor modules I believe there was mention of the aformentioned publics work mage who was employed to help with the reclamation of a swamp by casting Lower Water and walls of stone.

Those same spells could be used to dam up rivers and lower the water table to totally screw with someone.

I used exactly that as a plot element for the PCs to figure a solution for.

Solution
Step 1: Kill the wizard. Not easy. But they did it.
Step 2: Cast dispel magic on the Dam. In AD&D Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron vanish if dispelled.

And that is exactly why they arent used to make anything. One dispell and POOF! Its gone.

Which leads to the plot the PCs cooked up to screw with the enemy baron who caused all the starvation.

They had a mage cast Wall of iron. Then forged this into swords and armour. And sold them to the baron as he was arming up for another try at invasion.

Then at a strategic moment they blanketed the army with dispells and whammo 75% of the troops were suddenly unarmed and unarmoured, or alot less armoured.

Cause and Effect.

Really it's as simple as this:  Magic can really screw stuff up A LOT in every edition if you really want to.  It just comes down to your personal preference of what you feel comfortable with.

As a DM, I don't worry about the potential implications of mages casting at will ray of frosts until it gets to the point where it seems like it's becoming abused by the player in game, just like I don't worry about the potential implication of a rogue mage guild laying waste to an entire ecosystem if it never actually happens in the game.

Quote from: Omega;762174In AD&D Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron vanish if dispelled.

Huh. I did not know that.

I wonder why they changed that for 3e. That strikes me as just an odd change; were people upset that you could dispel a wall?

What possible purpose did changing the duration on these effects have? All it seems to have done is created a massive headache in the form of "wizards own the economy, deal with it."

Quote from: jhkimI think the latter is a straw man assertion, since no one has said that create water is (or should be) an at-will cantrip.

Quote from: mcbobbo;762166It is in Pathfinder.

Huh. I missed that. I had thought that Pathfinder 0th level spells worked the same as they did in D&D 3E, but it looks like you're right. In Pathfinder, cantrips/orisons are still prepared, but they are not expended by casting.

That's messed up. Certain cantrips - like Create Water - are potentially game-breaking if they can be cast at will. (It is worth noting that the water created by Pathfinder's orison disappears after 1 day if not drunk, but that is still very significant.)

Hopefully 5E won't follow Pathfinder's example, and will only include cantrips that are reasonable to cast at-will.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;761979That'd be worth specifying.

Why? I ask you because isn't it common sense? If I were a wizard I wouldn't be using my valuable downtime being some factory or office drone. I would be creating some scrolls, potions or researching my next spell. Or setting up some expedition to find some powerful magic item. Or maybe even crafting my own if that's a realistic option.

Quote from: Marleycat;762192Why? I ask you because isn't it common sense? If I were a wizard I wouldn't be using my valuable downtime being some factory or office drone. I would be creating some scrolls, potions or researching my next spell. Or setting up some expedition to find some powerful magic item. Or maybe even crafting my own if that's a realistic option.

In AD&D there were a built in limiters. You needed to be around level 11 to cast Enchant Item. It took days to enchant the item equal to the spell. AND you had to rest 1 day per 100 gp value of the item.

I was hellbent on building my own version of the Apparatus of Kwalish and talked the GM into letting me have a go at it. It took a month and 35k in expenses to build the frame alone. A month to enchant all the little effects in. And then a WHOLE YEAR of recovery where I couldnt even cast spells.

But I built the damn thing!

So does making a single wand of magic missiles. A whole year where the mage (or cleric, etc) is effectively powerless.

Now... Continual light lanterns would be a simple side business. As would running a magical restraunt. Vital if you are running a Spelljammer campaign where fire is a baaaaad idea.

Extrapolating possible magical business can be fun. Long as you dont go overboard and long as you remember that there are limiters.

Quote from: Bobloblah;762065The reality of what a player-controlled character will do (because it is, or is not, boring vis a vis what they have come to the game table for) has little to do with what a random slice of your fantasy population will do. Otherwise there are no Fighters who are town guard (no player does that in game!), Wizards who are solely court mages (booooring!), and Clerics who hang around the temple all day playing high priest (this job sucks!).

An NPC wizard who is willing to just sit at home all day ray of frosting from dusk to dawn isn't as believable as someone being a town guard or a court wizard though. It's not exactly likely to be work which is really stimulating or engaging enough for anyone with the intelligence to be a wizard in the first place, unless they had the sort of intense fixation on repetitive activity we tend to associate more with autistic people than wizards.

Quote from: Warthur;762270An NPC wizard who is willing to just sit at home all day ray of frosting from dusk to dawn isn't as believable as someone being a town guard or a court wizard though. It's not exactly likely to be work which is really stimulating or engaging enough for anyone with the intelligence to be a wizard in the first place, unless they had the sort of intense fixation on repetitive activity we tend to associate more with autistic people than wizards.

I think youd see some of these comprised of former adventurers who had a close brush with death. Or did die, and decided a coushie office job at the castle, magic shop, or militia was perhaps a better choice. Arneson used that for a Blackmoor module.

Or longer term adventurers who got to level 12 and decided to hell with this and retired while they still had all limbs attached.

We discussed this wayyyyyyyyyyyyy back with TSR staff at Gen Con once. Bounced around various ideas that Id guess never got used aside from what ended up applied to personal books or articles.

One suggestion was doing it to fund personal experiments. That stuff aint cheap. etc.

As usual. For me the anomaly can lead to some interesting NPC plot hooks or just background.

We will see soon enough how much 5e changes that dynamic.

Quote from: Omega;762245In AD&D there were a built in limiters. You needed to be around level 11 to cast Enchant Item. It took days to enchant the item equal to the spell. AND you had to rest 1 day per 100 gp value of the item.

I was hellbent on building my own version of the Apparatus of Kwalish and talked the GM into letting me have a go at it. It took a month and 35k in expenses to build the frame alone. A month to enchant all the little effects in. And then a WHOLE YEAR of recovery where I couldnt even cast spells.

But I built the damn thing!

So does making a single wand of magic missiles. A whole year where the mage (or cleric, etc) is effectively powerless.

Now... Continual light lanterns would be a simple side business. As would running a magical restraunt. Vital if you are running a Spelljammer campaign where fire is a baaaaad idea.

Extrapolating possible magical business can be fun. Long as you dont go overboard and long as you remember that there are limiters.

Of course. I hope 5e isn't as draconian about crafting as 2e or ridiculously easy like 3e.There has some middle ground in there between the two.

Quote from: Marleycat;762284Of course. I hope 5e isn't as draconian about crafting as 2e or ridiculously easy like 3e.There has some middle ground in there between the two.

2nd Ed AD&D crafting was Harder? I dont have the books handy bu that just sounds painfull if its meaner than being depowered for a Year just to make a wand of Magic missiles!

Quote from: Omega;7623032nd Ed AD&D crafting was Harder? I dont have the books handy bu that just sounds painfull if its meaner than being depowered for a Year just to make a wand of Magic missiles!

I said that didn't I? 2e was a bit harsh but 3e made it easy to mass produce magic items and I hated that. Though with the way wands and staves work in 5e I hope that it's closer to 2e then 3e.

Quote from: Marleycat;762192Why? I ask you because isn't it common sense? If I were a wizard I wouldn't be using my valuable downtime being some factory or office drone. I would be creating some scrolls, potions or researching my next spell. Or setting up some expedition to find some powerful magic item. Or maybe even crafting my own if that's a realistic option.

It's worth specifying because it isn't common sense and sometimes you would benefit from using these cantrips more than additional spell research - or, more to the point, society would.

XKCD What If?
Some discussing of what you could do with harnessing water from your bathtub to generate electricity.