Quote from: Bill;759317I think what's often missing in rpg combat systems is blunt weapons stunning and or inflicting blunt trauma, and pointy/cutting weapons inflicting bleeders or nasty wounds.

I agree. I don't really care about differing damage dice: I'd rather focus on Descriptors or Tags that differentiate a spiked mace from a rapier.

However, we then veer into the can of worms that is the debate about whether HP are actually tracking real wounds or if they are a nebulous representation of fatigue and exertion.

Quote from: Bill;759317I think what's often missing in rpg combat systems is blunt weapons stunning and or inflicting blunt trauma, and pointy/cutting weapons inflicting bleeders or nasty wounds.

GURPS handles these things very well. It is not an abstract system like D&D.

I prefer to leave abstract systems simple and leave the particular levels of detail to systems constructed to handle them.

Quote from: Bill;759317I think what's often missing in rpg combat systems is blunt weapons stunning and or inflicting blunt trauma, and pointy/cutting weapons inflicting bleeders or nasty wounds.

Well AD&D had subdual damage.

RuneQuest 6 also deals with this really well. The Combat Special Effects handles blunt weapons inflicting Bash (to knock someone off balance) or Stun Location (numbs one hit location, causing them to fall, drop a weapon, or be briefly knocked out or winded), pointy weapons can Impale (getting stuck in the wound, and inflicting further damage if/when pulled out), slashing weapons can Bleed (severing a major blood vessel and inflicting blood loss) ... and then there are many other effects like Damage Weapon or Disarm, Trip, Entangle (for nets and flexible weapons), etc etc.
It's a great system if you like your combat a bit more simulationist and gritty, but it runs smoothly in my experience.
It also has the advantage of armour reducing damage rather than making you harder to hit, though of course the Bypass Armour Special Effect can find the chinks in even full plate ...
If anyone's interested in checking it out, there's now a free download of RuneQuest Essentials on the Design Mechanism website. I highly recommend it ...

Quote from: Omega;759332Well AD&D had subdual damage.

But implemented it in a bizzaro manner.

Subdue a dragon with a stick but can't subdue a kobold.

1E also eventually added in a chance to knock out with brawling but a mace to the head can't ko you.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;759076Yup.  Balancing variable weapon damage is a PITA.

In my OD&D campaign small weapons do 1d6-1, medium weapons do 1d6, and two handed weapons do 1d6+1.

I'd buy that for a dollar.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;759080One thing I like about standard damage is that players are more apt to choose weapons based on what they like, rather than what damage they do.  In modern D&D (and most RPGs), how many dual dagger weilding PCs do you see?  Not many.  They're all with weapons to maximize damage.  The poor broad sword in D&D was always tossed aside for the long sword

Amen.  And a bit of the ol' shield and gladius now and again wouldn't be bad for us would it? Anything that nudges us back toward some variety would be welcome.

Quote from: Bill;759374But implemented it in a bizzaro manner.

Subdue a dragon with a stick but can't subdue a kobold.

1E also eventually added in a chance to knock out with brawling but a mace to the head can't ko you.

DMG says subdual applies to mugging more than just dragons.

And it was fairly straightforward too. Damage converted to subdual. 75% was temp. 25% was owies. Applied to humanoids, etc.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;759326GURPS handles these things very well. It is not an abstract system like D&D.

I prefer to leave abstract systems simple and leave the particular levels of detail to systems constructed to handle them.

I totally agree with this.

Sadly, some people insist that either one system should be stretched to do everything, or that a particular system actually does things other than what it does (and usually what it says it does).

Interestingly in real life a rapier is far heavier than a scimitar. People think of a rapier as a foil and indeed it actually isn't. I actually googled it today. WotC got it completely right.:eek:

Quote from: Marleycat;759602Interestingly in real life a rapier is far heavier than a scimitar. People think of a rapier as a foil and indeed it actually isn't. I actually googled it today. WotC got it completely right.:eek:

The page/table mentioned in the OP gives the rapier as being lighter than a scimitar, so how is that right in light of your googling?

Quote from: Natty Bodak;759605The page/table mentioned in the OP gives the rapier as being lighter than a scimitar, so how is that right in light of your googling?

I meant wrong.

Because before then I never thought different. Which means we're going to have to muck with the weights for weapons. I mean how hard is it to use Google?

Quote from: Marleycat;759608I meant wrong.

Because before then I never thought different. Which means we're going to have to muck with the weights for weapons. I mean how hard is it to use Google?

Heh. I can't ever keep the fencing weapons straight. I always think the sabre is the heaviest but I think it's actually the épée (thanks for accents, autocorrect!).

It's ironic that they list the scimitar as being heavier than the rapier but give the scimitar the "light" tag. I guess that's for you-know-who.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;759609Heh. I can't ever keep the fencing weapons straight. I always think the sabre is the heaviest but I think it's actually the épée (thanks for accents, autocorrect!).

It's ironic that they list the scimitar as being heavier than the rapier but give the scimitar the "light" tag. I guess that's for you-know-who.

No the scimitar is lighter and an edged weapon which means yes it can be dual wielded. The fact is the rapier is not only heavy, but so heavy that main guache, cloak or a buckler was used in your off hand to use the full effect of the weapon and in some cases just for basic balance. It really is that heavy. It's not a girl weapon at all unless you're profiencent.

1e fucked up by classing a scimitar as medium and therein the controversy.

Quote from: Marleycat;759613No the scimitar is lighter and an edged weapon which means yes it can be dual wielded. The fact is the rapier is not only heavy, but so heavy that main guache, cloak or a buckler was used in your off hand to use the full effect of the weapon and in some cases just for basic balance. It really is that heavy. It's not a girl weapon at all unless you're profiencent.

1e fucked up by classing a scimitar as medium and therein the controversy.

I see nothing wrong with the weight on the Rapier.  The sources I've read suggest that 2# is a reasonable average.  As for the scimitar, I'm not sure what weapon D&D has really meant when it says "scimitar" since it could mean a LOT of different things and I'd classify the majority as approximately as heavy as a longsword.

As for using a weapon in each hand, even rapiers were sometimes used two at a time.  Though dual-wielding in general appears to have been almost only a dueling thing and mostly pointless outside of that area.

Many games have massively inflated the weight of weapons.  Though outside of the Maul and Greatclub* I'm mostly impressed with the weights given in the 5e list even though they chose weights at he high end of the spectrum.


*A ten pound weapon is likely a show or parade weapon, not something used except in the direst of emergencies.

Quote from: Marleycat;759602Interestingly in real life a rapier is far heavier than a scimitar. People think of a rapier as a foil and indeed it actually isn't. I actually googled it today. WotC got it completely right.:eek:

Depends what you mean by each.

I collect antique swords and I have a very nice rapier that is much lighter than my crappy knackered scimitar.

A rapier also has a lot of weight in the pommel to make the blade more manuverable.

A scimitar can be a 24 inch long 1 and a 1/2 inch wide blade widening a the end to weight the blade for chopping and slashing or it can be a 3 inch wide 36 inch long curved blade used for beheding folk....

in terms of the blade weight since a rapier tends to have less metal in it (1/2 inch wide 24-36 inches long - though 24 inch would more correctly be a small sword) the blade is lighter. As I noted the weight of a rapier is in the pommell as a counter balance.

The damage a rapier does is mostly stabbing although most rapiers have a double edged tip about 6-8 inches long. Typically stabbing causes more damage than slashing because your squiggy internal organs are int eh middle of your body not on the outside.