I'd like to hear people's best arguments for or against either or both of the above-named systems of generating initial character ability scores.

I know lots of people have hybrid or unusual systems to do this - and that's cool.  But I am really interested in why you think rolling for ability scores is better, or standard array or point buy is better.  Either from a personal perspective, or a game design perspective, or whatever.

Quote from: Mistwell;759528I'd like to hear people's best arguments for or against either or both of the above-named systems of generating initial character ability scores.

I know lots of people have hybrid or unusual systems to do this - and that's cool.  But I am really interested in why you think rolling for ability scores is better, or standard array is better.  Either from a personal perspective, or a game design perspective, or whatever.

Of the two, standard array is my preference.  I'm allergic to most random generation* due to near universal experiences with either actual cheating or systems being so modified to create high stats it seems pointless.

My actual preference is to just let people generate stats any way they like, up to and including picking the values they want that makes sense for the character.  I've had surprisingly good results with this in point based systems and have yet to have anyone even try "I have all 18s."

I would say the standard array is a good compromise to my preference since it's just picking from a limited pool of results.


*Traveller and WHFRP 1st are exceptions, I think randomness is too central a feature to ignore for both.  And making Traveller characters is an adventure, so it's fun in it's own right.

If you don't roll 3D6 down the line, the OSR Taliban will break down your door and chop off your head. And I'm supplying the machetes!

Random roll only works when stats aren't the core determination of a character's ability in the game. AKA, if I need an 18 to be a mechanically useful fighter at the table, then point buy / standard array is necessary.

Point Buy / Standard Array is absolutely necessary in 3e/4e and certainly in any munchkinesque AD&D game. There were plenty of whiny fucks who bitched in the early 80s if their character had any stats without a bonus. Until I see actual 5e game, not the playtest docs, I cannot say how important stats will be in 5e.

However, if stats are -3 to +3 like Labyrinth Lord or -1 to +1 like S&W, then its no big deal to roll the dice. The difference between a +1 STR fighter and a +0 STR fighter isn't a big deal, especially if that +0 STR fighter has some other stat bonus.

At the end of the day, I greatly prefer 3D6 down the line because I really enjoy being surprised by the random result and I love turning those results into a cool character.

Standard array is a good way to get a quick character, actually faster than 3d6 in order. Plus, the player has input on what character they play rather than being completely random.

3d6 seven times, assign as desired, drop the 7th roll. Standard array leads to the same types of characters -- every character with a prime stat of 16. Not very interesting stuff. On the whole these days, high numbers really don't mean much. In my 5E play group, I think we have one PC with a negative Mod on anything.

Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

The impartial elegance of this statement pleases me.

4d6-drop 1 and reroll "1's". I roll horribly so my DM made that method up just for me so I could actually get a playable character without taking an hour on just rolling dice. Standard array is too samey and puts you in build not character mode. It's good for organized play, conventions or the like though.

I prefer "point-buy" to standard array, unless there are a few different arrays that players can choose from (jack-of-all trades, specialist etc...). So as to add a bit more variety.

Randomly rolling goes hand-in-hand with certain RPGs though (as someone already mentioned: WFRP 1e and 2e).

I've personally known players that defended random rolling to the death but usually rolled as many times as they wanted until they got stats that they liked. That doesn't count: you might as well be using point-buys or arrays.

I've settled on giving players a choice for one of two options:

• random, no swaps or drops;
• pick one or more scores and make them whatever you want, but then you have to roll on a random table.

I don't like arrays or point-buy because they tend to make two kinds of characters:

 -  guys with bland, middle-of-the-road scores, either all the same or one sliightly higher;
 -  freaks with one over-the-top ability and one or more ridiculously low abilities.

It also encourages focusing on character building. I hate character building. I hate anything that focuses player attention on the system instead of the world where the character lives. And honestly, if you have a strong urge to play a very strong character or a crafty agile character and don't want to risk not rolling the scores you want, "pick your damn scores already" is the best possible solution; all other methods are just fussy, time-consuming, and not as likely to give you the character you want.

I prefer players to experience at least some element of chance, however, which is why I wrote a random table for those who pick their scores. It adds unusual events to the character's background, none of which reduce the character's effectiveness, but instead give players something to think about and possibly deal with. Some is good, some is technically bad, a lot is just open to interpretation during the game.

I've got a thread here listing off the various ways D&D has done scores so far.

I like them all really.

But my favorites are...

4d6, discard lowest, arrange as desired. Slightly better than average stats and you have more say in what your character will be. Works in AD&D where stats determine what classes are availible.

3d6 in order, choose class, and then shuffle points. the BX method Im most used to. Randomness with some control. Works best in BX since stats are no as hardcoaded into the classes. They just grant a XP bonus if you have a good prime stat. So you can have fairly average fighters, not too bright magic users and so on.

Standard array is usefull. It was the very first alternative stat method I worked out. Next's array of 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 shows that you do not need an 18 stat to be viable.

Point buy systems allow alot of flexibility. I think it was interesting that the playtest point buy system did not go over 16.

My son and I roll 3d6 down the line. My wife and daughter pick their numbers. It all works out to be the same when we play.

Quote from: talysman;759557I've settled on giving players a choice for one of two options:

• random, no swaps or drops;
• pick one or more scores and make them whatever you want, but then you have to roll on a random table.

I don't like arrays or point-buy because they tend to make two kinds of characters:

 -  guys with bland, middle-of-the-road scores, either all the same or one sliightly higher;
 -  freaks with one over-the-top ability and one or more ridiculously low abilities.

It also encourages focusing on character building. I hate character building. I hate anything that focuses player attention on the system instead of the world where the character lives. And honestly, if you have a strong urge to play a very strong character or a crafty agile character and don't want to risk not rolling the scores you want, "pick your damn scores already" is the best possible solution; all other methods are just fussy, time-consuming, and not as likely to give you the character you want.

I prefer players to experience at least some element of chance, however, which is why I wrote a random table for those who pick their scores. It adds unusual events to the character's background, none of which reduce the character's effectiveness, but instead give players something to think about and possibly deal with. Some is good, some is technically bad, a lot is just open to interpretation during the game.

I like 3d6 in order, with a single die reroll across the whole enchilada.

I would rather avoid point buys and arrays for the same reasons you give, and despite knowing that I will be the worst offender if presented with a point buy.

I think I like the idea of the "just pick the stats and submit to the table!"  Can you share some example entries you used for the table?

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

Not really.

With random you can get some good ideas for off the cuff characters.

With point buy you can end up with cookie cutter min-maxed or baseline walking stat blocks.

In the wrong hands random generation can stifle creativity.
In the wrong hands point buy can stifle creativity.
In the right hands random generation can inspire creativity.
In the right hands point buy can inspire creativity.

Quote from: Marleycat;7595554d6-drop 1 and reroll "1's".

Same except not dropping the 1's, just 4d6 drop the lowest, put scores where you like; too much point build and it is the same every time.