Quote from: honesttiago;757867The way you're describing finesse here, I am wondering if maybe it shouldn't be INT-based. Choosing vulnerable locations could be a matter of analytic, rather than just deftness.  Again, my main problem with finesse isn't the idea. It's the fact that DEX already has so much utility over other stats. If finesse was shifted to INT, then INT would gain a combat use, and DEX would balance out a bit more (saves, inish and AC).

I think you are looking for a way to balance stats especially in combat which is irrelevant to a physics engine that simulates combat.
Or in other words would you prefer to be stabbed by Zorro or Stephen Hawking?

Quote from: Omega;758042Ballad = A sort of narrative song.

Yeah me bad can't spell ballad thought it was ballard ... just goes to show

Quote from: jibbajibba;758040isn't Ballardin better though .....

Hmm...ballarina ---paladin. It has traction.

Quote from: Marleycat;758004You do know why Drizzt and scimitars are a thing right? It's from UA it's a drow racial ability in 1e. Drow are the only PC race able to dual wield medium weapons. It's why scimitars are light weapons and hand crossbows aren't exotic weapons in 5e, given Drow are in PHB and expected to be a viable choice in most games and probably OP.

Seriously?  So it could just as easily have been dual long swords or maces?

I seem to remember that those characters were min-maxed; wasn't one a UA barbarian?

Quote from: Votan;758049Seriously?  So it could just as easily have been dual long swords or maces?

I seem to remember that those characters were min-maxed; wasn't one a UA barbarian?

No minmax just fact. No, scimatars were the male drow racial weapon and considered medium ONLY to them. They're actually heavy weapons to everyone else including female drow. Hence hand crossbows for female drow. And like I already said....only Drow can dual wield two medium weapons and only scimitars because it's a RACIAL advantage and weapon for them, everyone else has to do medium/light.

Remember this is 1e which was cross compatible to all versions until 3e.

Quote from: Marleycat;758060No minmax just fact. No, scimatars were the male drow racial weapon and considered medium ONLY to them. They're actually heavy weapons to everyone else including female drow. Hence hand crossbows for female drow. And like I already said....only Drow can dual wield two medium weapons and only scimitars because it's a RACIAL advantage and weapon for them, everyone else has to do medium/light.

Remember this is 1e which was cross compatible to all versions until 3e.

I don't feel like digging out my decreipt copy of 1e UA, but this doesn't sound right at all. 1e AD&D didn't even have a concept of 'heavy' and 'light' weapons. It did say that drow could dual wield without penalty, which was already the case in 1e Fiend Folio - but in FF they could only use shortsword + dagger without penalty, and 1e UA didn't mention that restriction, which led to Driz'zt. Salvatore had Driz'zt's dad dual-wielding longswords in 'Homeland', as I recall.
Anyone could use drow hand crossbows AFAICR, if they could get hold of one.

Quote from: jibbajibba;758043I think you are looking for a way to balance stats especially in combat which is irrelevant to a physics engine that simulates combat.
Or in other words would you prefer to be stabbed by Zorro or Stephen Hawking?

That is exactly what I'm trying to do, mainly because DEX is such an uber stat in 5E (initiative, saves, ranged attack, melee attack AND damage with finesses weapons).  On the above, who's to say Zorro's prowess isn't in some way based on experience and training? His DEX could indicate his ability to defend himself, his INT could indicate ability to seek opening, press advantage, hit the right spot -- coolness in combat, so to speak. That is, if I was really trying to rationalize the concept. As you correctly noted, I'm trying to diminish the cache of DEX. Feel like it eclipses all other stats in 5th.

Quote from: cranebump;758087That is exactly what I'm trying to do, mainly because DEX is such an uber stat in 5E (initiative, saves, ranged attack, melee attack AND damage with finesses weapons).  On the above, who's to say Zorro's prowess isn't in some way based on experience and training? His DEX could indicate his ability to defend himself, his INT could indicate ability to seek opening, press advantage, hit the right spot -- coolness in combat, so to speak. That is, if I was really trying to rationalize the concept. As you correctly noted, I'm trying to diminish the cache of DEX. Feel like it eclipses all other stats in 5th.

There is training involved for sure and that is why its easier to hit as you level up and you learn techniques (feats or specialisation or whatever) that increase damage.

The problem isn't with the dominance of dex its with the inclusion of dex as a single stat. If you look at what is dex is made up of, balance, speed, agility, accuracy, reactions is it the dominant stat for combat without a doubt. In the real world those things are not so tightly coupled.

So if you want to reduce the effectiveness of dex rather than artificially enhancing int or wisdom or whatever split dex into accuracy and agility or whatever. Or even further and have reactions, agility and accuracy. One gives you a + to initiative, one to ac and one to hit and damage.

Quote from: jibbajibba;758089There is training involved for sure and that is why its easier to hit as you level up and you learn techniques (feats or specialisation or whatever) that increase damage.

The problem isn't with the dominance of dex its with the inclusion of dex as a single stat. If you look at what is dex is made up of, balance, speed, agility, accuracy, reactions is it the dominant stat for combat without a doubt. In the real world those things are not so tightly coupled.

So if you want to reduce the effectiveness of dex rather than artificially enhancing int or wisdom or whatever split dex into accuracy and agility or whatever. Or even further and have reactions, agility and accuracy. One gives you a + to initiative, one to ac and one to hit and damage.

Accurate observation. DexterityIS quite all-encompassing. I am wondering, too, if a strong approach might not be to go the other way--fewer stats. Microlite uses STR, DEX and MIND, essentially folding STR/CON together and INT/WIS together. DEX pretty much stays the same. Since STR now enhances hit, damage, hp's and is a saving throw, it has a LOT more cache. MIND is still the province of casters and such, but it IS the will save, and figures in a lot of other checks, so it balances a bit more.

Quote from: cranebump;758091Accurate observation. DexterityIS quite all-encompassing. I am wondering, too, if a strong approach might not be to go the other way--fewer stats. Microlite uses STR, DEX and MIND, essentially folding STR/CON together and INT/WIS together. DEX pretty much stays the same. Since STR now enhances hit, damage, hp's and is a saving throw, it has a LOT more cache. MIND is still the province of casters and such, but it IS the will save, and figures in a lot of other checks, so it balances a bit more.

yup I have used Prowess, Guile and Lore before. It all depends on what  are looking to do.

I definitely agree that you can reduce the importance of Dex in an array of 6 stats by either splitting it and adding more stats or by condensing the other stats to increase their importance, if a balance of stats is critical to you.

Often this sort of balance is only critical if a particular element of play is central to your game so a combat focused game might want to balance the effectiveness of stats in combat. But if the game is more open and roleplay, exploration, research etc are all as critical as combat then in effect a single stat dominating an aspect of play is less critical because of the other aspects of play.

Quote from: Marleycat;758048Hmm...ballarina ---paladin. It has traction.

Pallarina. :rolleyes:

Add lycanthropy and you could be a were-ballerina like in Howling III. :eek:

Quote from: S'mon;758085I don't feel like digging out my decreipt copy of 1e UA, but this doesn't sound right at all. 1e AD&D didn't even have a concept of 'heavy' and 'light' weapons. It did say that drow could dual wield without penalty, which was already the case in 1e Fiend Folio - but in FF they could only use shortsword + dagger without penalty, and 1e UA didn't mention that restriction, which led to Driz'zt. Salvatore had Driz'zt's dad dual-wielding longswords in 'Homeland', as I recall.
Anyone could use drow hand crossbows AFAICR, if they could get hold of one.

UA on page 10 says that Dark elves may fight with two weapons without penalty, as long as each weapon can easily be wielded in one hand. No gender requirement.

Quote from: cranebump;758091Accurate observation. DexterityIS quite all-encompassing. I am wondering, too, if a strong approach might not be to go the other way--fewer stats. Microlite uses STR, DEX and MIND, essentially folding STR/CON together and INT/WIS together. DEX pretty much stays the same. Since STR now enhances hit, damage, hp's and is a saving throw, it has a LOT more cache. MIND is still the province of casters and such, but it IS the will save, and figures in a lot of other checks, so it balances a bit more.

Personally I dislike stats that are rolled together too much.

linking 'IQ' and 'Willpower' feels wrong to me.

Linking how dexterous a person is with their hands to how well they move around feels wrong.

Etc...

Quote from: jibbajibba;758040isn't Ballardin better though .....

The best of all is the Bardbarian.

On the topic of the one-handed staff, the explanation which makes most sense to me is that this only really matters for use with the 'Polearm Master' feat. That lets you wield a pole arm (including a quarter staff) as a pair of light weapons, with the off-hand end doing 1d4 damage. So you would either strike once for 1d8 damage, or dual wield for 1d6 and 1d4.