Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;757793I'm not quite sure about this "Finesse" peoperty. Most of the larger weapons aren't finessable so you'd definitely want STR in a great weapon fighter build, but it seems like a basic high Strength, longsword-and-shield fighter is less useful than high Dex, rapier-and-shield, which would do the same damage while also having a higher AC...maybe there's a problem with the rapier doing d8. We'll see when the full rules appear and it can all be evaluated in context, I suppose.

Other than that:
I do like that small creatures don't have specific S-sized weapons (having a halfling unable to use the magic shortsword you just found a la 3E/Pathfinder because it isn't an S-sized shortsword irks me). Also, I like that the handaxe can be thrown, instead of needing a separate throwing axe.

I really HATE the finesse property, precisely for the reason you state here. DEX is an uber-stat in modern D&D. It affects INISH, AC, ranged AND melee hit and damage, AND is probably the most used saving throw (5E uses stats versus saves). It's just ridiculous, to the point where, recently, I drew up a Ranger, and ended up with one of my rolls being a 6. After careful thought, I put the 6 into STR of all things, because the only thing it hurt him on was Athletics checks (well, with his high CON, low STR, I also preferred to think of him as "tough, but wiry").  Seeing as how I was headed down an archer path anyway, it made sense to go that way. But, yeah...can't stand how much DEX affects everything now. It's insane.

Quote from: Skywalker;7577944e - two-handed and 1d8

Fair enough.  I can grant that there are probably arguments for upgrading the quarterstaff damage-wise in terms or parity and balance (although I would respectfully differ).  But making it one-handed???

Quote from: cranebump;757797I really HATE the finesse property, precisely for the reason you state here...

Seems to me that this is another example of "everyone should be equally awesome in combat." It's no fair if the high-DEX thief or ranger does less damage per attack than the high-STR fighter, so let's let the thief use DEX for a damage bonus. Oh, and the magic-user isn't doing enough damage either, so let's bump the staff up to 1d8. I think I'd much rather get bonked with a staff than stabbed with a spear.

Quote from: languagegeek;757802Seems to me that this is another example of “everyone should be equally awesome in combat.” It’s no fair if the high-DEX thief or ranger does less damage per attack than the high-STR fighter, so let’s let the thief use DEX for a damage bonus. Oh, and the magic-user isn’t doing enough damage either, so let’s bump the staff up to 1d8. I think I’d much rather get bonked with a staff than stabbed with a spear.

Or just maybe there are other tropes then Conan or traditional sword and board or elven cavalier or just any elven fighter beyond Drizz't or Algoron or whatever. What? You think there are no elven melee fighters without being Bard or Rogue? Just a couple concepts among many that are expected and accepted in the modern era.

There are popular lightly armoured archetypes beyond 1200 AD. Sorry it busts your bubble but those and others are valid.

As for the great stave controversy it's that way to avoid the bullshit of...is a quarterstaff a 1 or 2 handed weapon, it's both by the way, or a double weapon? And to allow a Mage/Sorcerer possibly Warlock primary F/M subclass like a staff fighting Magus or similar in the future without being forced into a Bard subclass or Paladin to make an ugly kludge.  

The goal of 5e is exactly like FantasyCraft. It wants to be CONFIGURABLE not purely COMPATIBLE.

Quote from: Marleycat;757806Or just maybe there are other tropes then Conan or traditional sword and board or elven cavalier or just any elven fighter beyond Drizz't or Algoron or whatever.There are popular lightly armoured archetypes beyond 1200 AD. Sorry it busts your bubble but those and others are valid.

Yes, those are valid, and I'm totally on-board with DEX giving a to-hit bonus to reflect that. I mean, I like certain weapons getting an overall to-hit bonus reflecting that a bow is easier to aim than a sling (or whatever). But the damage bonus from DEX for specific weapons doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Instead, this gives Errol Foiljabber twice the advantage over Biff Brainsmasher.

QuoteAs for the great stave controversy it's that way to avoid the bullshit of...is a quarterstaff a 1 or 2 handed weapon, it's both by the way or a double weapon? And to allow a Mage primary F/M subclass like a staff fighting Magus or similar.

2-handed @ 1d6 damage. If you want a one-handed staff, make it smaller or less balanced with 1d4 damage. Or hell, I got DCC dice so the smaller staff is 1d5 damage. Done. Otherwise, why the hell would I use a mace or trident which have heavy and/or sharp metal bits at the end?

Quote from: Marleycat;757806The goal of 5e is exactly like FantasyCraft. It wants to be CONFIGURABLE not purely COMPATIBLE.

I'm happy that 5e's goal is to be just like your favourite flavour of D&D.

Main thing I noticed was that there is no actual point to taking a greatclub since a 2H staff does the same damage and weighs 6# less.  I'd raise the greatclub to 1d10 damage, since at 10 lbs it's stupid heavy.

As well the trident is just a 1 pound heavier spear unless there is more to the write-up we aren't seeing.

I'm assuming the greataxe is a "big ass fantasy axe" more than something ever actually used by anyone historically.

As for issues with using a staff 1 handed, you don't use it like a sword 1 handed, you use it like a spear 1-handed (either along the arm held in the middle-ish or overhand), it's just not sharp on the end (though a few minutes with a knife to sharpen an end or two and arguably it is for a couple pokes).  

Really, spear/staff/polearm is a continuum of weapons with similar techniques more than totally separate categories.  Though you can use a staff like a dull wooden greatsword (something Gurps noted).  And I say this as someone who has fought with padded versions of them used at full strength and as near to "real" weight as we could make them.  I may not be authentic, but I've tried to come as close as I can without killing anyone.

Quote from: Skywalker;7577944e - two-handed and 1d8

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And 4vengers say 5e never pulled anything from 4e

Quote from: languagegeek;757808Yes, those are valid, and I'm totally on-board with DEX giving a to-hit bonus to reflect that. I mean, I like certain weapons getting an overall to-hit bonus reflecting that a bow is easier to aim than a sling (or whatever). But the damage bonus from DEX for specific weapons doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Instead, this gives Errol Foiljabber twice the advantage over Biff Brainsmasher.


2-handed @ 1d6 damage. If you want a one-handed staff, make it smaller or less balanced with 1d4 damage. Or hell, I got DCC dice so the smaller staff is 1d5 damage. Done. Otherwise, why the hell would I use a mace or trident which have heavy and/or sharp metal bits at the end?

Configurable..you get where I'm coming from and now I get where you're coming from.We're good.

Quote from: Marleycat;757806As for the great stave controversy it's that way to avoid the bullshit of...is a quarterstaff a 1 or 2 handed weapon, it's both by the way, or a double weapon? And to allow a Mage primary F/M subclass like a staff fighting Magus or similar.

Bo Staff has some one-handed techniques.

Quote from: cranebump;757797I really HATE the finesse property, precisely for the reason you state here. DEX is an uber-stat in modern D&D. It affects INISH, AC, ranged AND melee hit and damage, AND is probably the most used saving throw (5E uses stats versus saves). It's just ridiculous...

Part of this is that there are/were weapons used in formation vs weapons used for duels.  No sane person used a rapier and buckler in formation for example but you would likely do so in a duel (depending on period of course).

Quote from: languagegeek;757809I'm happy that 5e's goal is to be just like your favourite flavour of D&D.

EXACTLY. And if you understand it's all supposed to be mix and match beyond BASIC it may be yours also.

Quote from: Brander;757810Main thing I noticed was that there is no actual point to taking a greatclub since a 2H staff does the same damage and weighs 6# less.  I'd raise the greatclub to 1d10 damage, since at 10 lbs it's stupid heavy.

As well the trident is just a 1 pound heavier spear unless there is more to the write-up we aren't seeing.

I'm assuming the greataxe is a "big ass fantasy axe" more than something ever actually used by anyone historically.

As for issues with using a staff 1 handed, you don't use it like a sword 1 handed, you use it like a spear 1-handed (either along the arm held in the middle-ish or overhand), it's just not sharp on the end (though a few minutes with a knife to sharpen an end or two and arguably it is for a couple pokes).  

Really, spear/staff/polearm is a continuum of weapons with similar techniques more than totally separate categories.  Though you can use a staff like a dull wooden greatsword (something Gurps noted).  And I say this as someone who has fought with padded versions of them used at full strength and as near to "real" weight as we could make them.  I may not be authentic, but I've tried to come as close as I can without killing anyone.

What you and everyone seems to be forgetting is setting and which options ARE actually available... too much white room stuff is coloring your stance. Of course 1 handed you use it like a spear! Or like a teacher's ruler to rap them upside the noggin to wake them up or back them off for your real action. Swift spell anyone? Think magical staves and multiclassing or subclasses and that it's all optional but needs to be there AS AN OPTION...it's really fun.

Still hoping shield-and-pike is viable finally.

If all PHB options are options. I think I will create a Drow multiclass Enchanter or Bard or just  straight to piss off everyone over 40. Better yet a Paladin of some kind or multiclass Bard/Paladin!!!!!