Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227One thing where the Pundit and I actually agree (I think) is that WotC may be targeting 5E as 'everyone's second-favorite D&D'.

Hmm, I hadn't heard that yet.  Possibly.

VS

Quote from: Saplatt;7572174. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.

I know a lot of fans of previous editions of D&D who play them because they like them - even though they have money to buy new games and the mental ability to to learn them. Just like most American football fans I know don't switch to the far more popular Association football (aka soccer) even though Association football has many more fans than American football and they have the brainpower to learn the rules and the money to buy tickets.

Quote from: RandallS;757348I know a lot of fans of previous editions of D&D who play them because they like them - even though they have money to buy new games and the mental ability to to learn them. Just like most American football fans I know don't switch to the far more popular Association football (aka soccer) even though Association football has many more fans than American football and they have the brainpower to learn the rules and the money to buy tickets.

Soccer is more popular in the U.S. than football?

Quote from: Saplatt;757351Soccer is more popular in the U.S. than football?

I believe soccer may have overtaken everything but baseball in the US. Not certain though.

Quote from: Saplatt;757351Soccer is more popular in the U.S. than football?

In term of participation by children, yes. As a spectator sport? Not even close.

Quote from: Haffrung;757356In term of participation by children, yes. As a spectator sport? Not even close.

Yeah, it's not close at all.  I like both (the Portland Timbers are my local soccer team), but even I have to admit that more than half the fans there are early 20ish hipsters who are only there for the profane chants and beer, and not for the game itself.  I.e., I highly suspect they're fair weather fans because that's what's "in" currently.  It's also not exactly an apples to apples re: buying tickets.  A Timbers ticket is $35-$50.  A Seahawks ticket is $300-$700

I'm in the camp of finding games I can DM successfully and provide tools to help me do so.  I've largely admitted to myself that is going to be a game that has instant familiarity like D&D but is closer to a Basic model due to my time limits.  I like 3.5 edition but it gives me problems creating higher level characters as a player, DMing it would overwhelm me.  

5th edition is looking promising.  I'll of course pick up the free Basic pdf.  Because of the brand, I'll be able to check out supplements, tools, adventures, and expansion in physical copy even here in small town western NY.  I miss being able to look at products and the ever decreasing selection of products at most brick & mortar stores depresses me.  Just being able to peruse material will lead to impulse buys out of curiosity.  If it builds off of that basic model, it will allow me to pick and choose what I want to add to the game in a modular format.  

For that same reason, 4th edition didn't appeal to me.  I was able to look at it and didn't have an instant familiarization or inspiration.  5th edition will not only allow me to peruse the game freely, a model I've almost come to expect now, it will allow me access to peruse physical products almost everywhere.

Yeah I hope the big three professional sports are enjoying the money now.  Ticket prices to see the winning teams are a luxury item and with teams being a corporate brand instead of really having a local identity, the newer generations are going to be attracted to the sports they played, not the sports their grandfathers played.

Soccer though, would catch on a lot faster if there weren't ties.  In the US, someone has to win, someone has to lose.

Quote from: Gunslinger;757363I miss being able to look at products and the ever decreasing selection of products at most brick & mortar stores depresses me.  .

Same here.  And I am near certain that RPG products in FLGS are doomed.  Just look at when they announced the price of the D&D books, and the overwhelming majority of people said they are buying from Amazon at a discount.  FLGS will die because no one wants to support their FLGS anymore.  And that's really sad.

Quote from: Haffrung;757356In term of participation by children, yes. As a spectator sport? Not even close.

Without looking at a chart, I could probably name at least 50 members of the Denver Broncos and at least a half-dozen from each of the other 31 franchises (and twice that many from AFC West teams).

I don't follow college football as much, but I'm sure I could tell you the nicknames for at least 60 schools and what conference they play in.  

The only soccer players I could name are Pele (who I think retired a long time ago) and some guy named Beckem or something like that. I think Colorado's professional soccer team is called "The Rapids."  That's the only one I can think of.

I'm pretty sure I've never watched a college or professional soccer game from start to finish.  Ever. Other than the Monty Python skit with the German philosophers vs. the Greeks.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;757365Same here.  And I am near certain that RPG products in FLGS are doomed.  Just look at when they announced the price of the D&D books, and the overwhelming majority of people said they are buying from Amazon at a discount.  FLGS will die because no one wants to support their FLGS anymore.  And that's really sad.

It is.  Places like Crazy Egor's in Rochester, NY (once mentioned in the pages of Dragon Magazine) are gone.  Places me and my friends would make pilgrimages to.  Whenever I travel, I still seek out RPG stores.  My last trip to Game Empires in Pasadena let me down.  Not only a smaller section for RPGs but even less of a selection for used RPGs.  I had better luck living in Hawaii.  The best I've seen in a while was a store in Chicago, which actually stocked POD games and small independent publishers.  It's where I picked up my LotFP boxed set while balancing the merits of purchasing products like LL AEC, ICONS, or DCC.  I could've been there for hours.

Quote from: Bill;757353I believe soccer may have overtaken everything but baseball in the US. Not certain though.

No. NFL football is more popular by miles. The sport in the most trouble is baseball because the other three sports are taking the new generation players and interest for multiple reasons. Soccer in the US is number 4-5 but likely will go up within the next 20-30 years because of demographic changes and immigration. It doesn't affect the NFL though given it's popular with females and hispanics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;757364Yeah I hope the big three professional sports are enjoying the money now.  Ticket prices to see the winning teams are a luxury item and with teams being a corporate brand instead of really having a local identity, the newer generations are going to be attracted to the sports they played, not the sports their grandfathers played.

I'm a huge giant College and Pro American Football fan and I've never played American Football in my life. I've also only gone to maybe 2 games in person. And hell, I don't really like going to the games. You get a superior viewing experience watching it on TV.

People are fans of the sports that have a culture of fans. It builds on itself, I'm a Georgia Bulldogs fan, why? Because I live in Athens, Georgia, my dad was a UGA fan, my brothers and uncles are UGA fans, my friends are UGA fans.

To a large degree, the sports you are fans of are largely regional and cultural, and has nothing to do with whether you've played the sport or not. (Hell, most of the fans I know have never played ANY sport other than pickup games).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;757387People are fans of the sports that have a culture of fans. It builds on itself, I'm a Georgia Bulldogs fan, why? Because I live in Athens, Georgia, my dad was a UGA fan, my brothers and uncles are UGA fans, my friends are UGA fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6Sw26gUQo

A song with lyrics that will make you weep.

Seems like there are two topics in these threads:

- Why won't you buy and play 5E?
- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?

So, my answers.

- I haven't bought a TSR/WOTC/Hasbro D&D product since 1st ed AD&D. Why would I start now? I already own and play games that I love. That fill the fantasy sword & sorcery class-based rpg niche. I don't buy a car unless I need a new car. And I don't need a new car.

- Our hobby has branched out into a number of little sub-groups. Many of them are self-sufficient. Many produce their own materials, either for sale or given away at no charge. In fact, there are so many different items published or self-published in a year that I would find it very, very difficult to be at all even mildly curious about them all, let alone support these creators with my money. I certainly wouldn't be able to use so many products.

If I want to play rpgs, then I just have to convince others in my circle of friends/acquaintances to play. The materials are already out there. Hasbro doesn't need my money. And whether they can sell yet another game system with the label "D&D" on it, or not, doesn't really impact me. Will there always be rpg materials available? Will enough people hear about them to be interested?

Aren't there more important things in life to be worried about?

I don't care if you play rpgs or which ones you play. But don't take my disinterest as some kind of passive-aggressive attack on you, personally. If something comes along that purports to present something different, and that particular twist seems like something I might like, and if I happen to be in the market for trying a new game, then, if I feel it's reasonably priced, and the reviews look good, I might join a group that's playing it, and give it a spin. But it's a long, long process before you'll get any money out of me.