The edition war seems to be turning into a war of enthusiasm:
http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-enthusiasm-war.html


For those who'd rather read it below than on my blog...

QuoteThe Enthusiasm War

Something strange is brewing just below the surface of D&D's upcoming 5th edition.  I don't know if it's a backlash or some kind of mutant rebound backlash reverberating through the RPG echo-sphere.  Anyway, the effects are being talked about even though only a few people are addressing the problem itself.  And it is a problem, in my estimation.  Not because I have a particular view and others aren't agreeing with it, but that many gamers are fighting some invisible edition war over a set of rules which doesn't even exist yet.  It's not even a war of editions - it's a war of enthusiasm (or lack thereof).  Why?

Below are the eight camps I've seen.  Chances are, you're in one of the categories below or a hybrid of multiple categories.  Again, I don't care who is where or why... I would just like everything on the table so that maybe some civility can prevail, if not transcendent introspection.


1.  So, we've got people who are loving the promise of 5e and what it represents.  

2.  People who are tentatively optimistic but skeptical.  

3.  Those who just don't care.

4.  Those who think 5e is doing far too little, too late and are unhappy about one thing or another.

5.  A few cranks who absolutely loath 5e and what it represents.

6.  5e lovers who are sick and tired of what they perceive to be 5e hating trolls.

7.  Those disenchanted by what they've seen of 5e who just want the 5e lovers to shut up already.

8.  Cautious, intrigued skeptics who feel harassed or threatened by all the 5e love.


Maybe the gaming community just needs to work this stuff out on its own by constantly arguing back and forth.  I don't know.  However, I will say that in certain corners of the internet, the trolling, flaming, petty bickering, and "threadcrapping" looks pretty ugly.

Perhaps we can agree on a few things... our very own Geneva Convention?  If one side refrains from using the phrase "OSR Taliban" and projecting that the other side "hates 5e" even though they're only skeptical or ambivalent, the other side can stop this: "Your 5e super-fandom is threatening my cautious appraisal of what I've seen so far; now I'm going to go off on it - and you!"  Sound fair?

Even though I'm pleased about what I've seen from all the articles, interviews, forum discussion, and playtest documents regarding 5e (yes, I've done the research), that's not why I'm on the + side of the debate.  Just to be clear, I'm not against debate.  In fact, I love it... when it's constructive.  Another reason I'm pro D&D is because our hobby is shrinking and could eventually die off if we're not passionate about its progression.

Now, there are many routes to rejuvenation.  5e isn't the answer to everything and, for you, it might be the wrong answer.  But at least it's something.  A step in the right direction.  Want to go a different route?  Awesome.  Do it.  Grow paper & pencil tabletop roleplaying in your own way. Just know that if you decide to do nothing, then 5e might be the only reason ordinary people know what a roleplaying game is five years from now.  "You know, like Dungeons & Dragons."

As a community, we can be critical while still being supportive; we can like what we like while understanding those who don't.  I propose we approach further discussion consciously.  Hopefully, that's not too much to ask.


VS

I'm cautiously optimistic. Having the rules as a free pdf makes me more likely to try it. It'll likely have some nuggets to steal if nothing else.

Bounded accuracy sounds promising.

Quote from: VengerSatanis;757192Maybe the gaming community just needs to work this stuff out on its own by constantly arguing back and forth.

You can read the gaming community working this stuff out back in early Dragon magazines. I don’t think much progress has been made since.

Some random thoughts about the most vocal:

The arguing is more important than the argument. I hear the kids doing this all the time, or sports fans, or historians, or politicos...

A lot of people love D&D (their hockey team, their political party...) For some, they’ve sunk countless hours into the game, building a sort of personal relationship with it. To see a new version is to see someone else’s D&D, that isn’t quite how they’d do it. If the writers had only done X, it would be way better. Same thing happens in sports talk or political commentary or which Beatles’ song is best.

For others, they seek community under the umbrella of the new thing. To see a new version is to see an opportunity to get involved with the upcoming new best thing. They are willing to overlook the not-quite-how-I’d-do-it parts to get in on the ground floor. In a similar way, some seek community under the old best thing and are willing to overlook aspets of their own games. At times these two clash in some sort of generational dominance thing (again, not a gaming-specific human trait.)

So we’ve got arguing to confirm one’s relationship with the game, either personal or communal, or most likely a bit of both. The content of the debate is less important than the debate itself. Those on the “New thing” or “Old thing” side will argue for their position, and those on the “personal thing” will argue for the way they’d have done it. I don’t know if this is good or bad, but it sure is human.

At the same time, there has been a good bit of rational debate as well as blatent trolling. So yeah, people.

Languagegeek has spoken well. Much of the heat has been shed in tribal ritual, meant to establish in-group bona fides.

The light has come from the previews themselves, and enough has been shed for the several tribes to line up and be counted.

Knife fight at midnight!

The shuffling of musical chairs online will be interesting to see once the BASIC PDF comes out and after the PHB comes out.

"Zap it, buzz it, easy does it!  Stay cool, cool boy!"

Quote from: languagegeek;757197You can read the gaming community working this stuff out back in early Dragon magazines. I don't think much progress has been made since.

Not just Dragon, in a various fanzines, where they were free of TSR editorial control.

Anyway, I think the big problem with 5e is apathy. There seem to be some people excited for it, but most seem largely "meh".

Pathfinder fans will probably still play Pathfinder.

4e fans will probably still play 4e

OSR fans will probably still play OSR games.

And I don't think the core problem at WOTC has been fixed - namely that their adventures tend to be awful and their products lackluster in general. And while they are generously giving away the basic rules, their main competitor is essentially giving away all the rules.

I think there are probably six categories of detractors:

1. Roleplaying Game Systems Experts who feel that 4es biggest failure was that IT DIDN’T GO FAR ENOUGH in distancing itself from previous editions of the game and are upset that WotC didn’t hire them as consultants for 5e.

2. Butthurt 4e fans who are upset that they lost the Edition Wars and want to see 5e strangled in the cradle, or otherwise out-bomb 4e, so that they’ll have someone lower on the failure ladder to piss on.

3. Butthurt 3e fans who are still suffering PTSD from 4e, most of whom have sworn allegiance to the One True Paizo Golem God and who will never, ever forgive WotC for their pain.

4. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.

5. People who have a personal grudge against members or consultants of the WotC 5e team, for reasons that have nothing to do with the system.

6. Then, and only then, those who just don’t give a damn and never will.

What's funny about the situation is that this site is having the most balanced discussion about the game between ENWorld, TBP and the WotC boards and here.

Quote from: JeremyR;757216Pathfinder fans will probably still play Pathfinder.

4e fans will probably still play 4e

OSR fans will probably still play OSR games.

   I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.

  As I've theorized elsewhere, the D&D family of games currently has three major 'tentpoles' or polarities--Exploration-focused (OD&D), Character Building-focused (3.5/PF) and Tactical Combat-focused (4E)--and other versions of the game tend to land in the middle area bounded by those three. 5E is placing itself squarely in the middle.

  Folks who play OSR games for the heavy exploration focus will probably stick with those, but those who just want something lighter than the other two tentpoles and don't care about logistical details and the nitty-gritty of dungeon/hexcrawl exploration may adopt 5E, especially if it's well-supported and popular. Similarly, PF fans may move towards it if they want something lighter, and just start using their Adventure Paths with 5E rules.

  4E's audience (which I count myself as part of--I do actually like the game and a lot of what it tried to do) will probably not switch altogether; the audience has been trimmed down to those who appreciate the game for what it is, and 5E isn't trying to be the same thing. But they may adopt the game as an alternative or something that does different things.

  And that's the other thing that I think may help--less of a 'One True Game' approach and more of a 'modern system that looks and feels like D&D' that people can use as part of their library. I know I've been looking for a 'cleaned-up, smoother, more flexible 2E' for a few years now, even after coming around to 4E's virtues, and 5E appears to have the potential to fill that niche. One thing where the Pundit and I actually agree (I think) is that WotC may be targeting 5E as 'everyone's second-favorite D&D'.

QuoteAnd I don't think the core problem at WOTC has been fixed - namely that their adventures tend to be awful and their products lackluster in general. And while they are generously giving away the basic rules, their main competitor is essentially giving away all the rules.

  Well, they're subcontracting the adventures--AFAIK, the Starter Set is by Rich Baker and the first adventure path by Kobold Press. As for giving away the rules, in Paizo's case, that's making a virtue of necessity--the OGL means that any mechanical stuff they create that hooks heavily into their basic rules has to be Open in turn.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.

I played 3.x for a LONG time because it was popular and it was easy to get people to play it. And I'll be honest, I hate the level of rules in it, I think it is wonky in a lot of ways, and especially think that it is too much work to GM.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.

  As I've theorized elsewhere, the D&D family of games currently has three major 'tentpoles' or polarities--Exploration-focused (OD&D), Character Building-focused (3.5/PF) and Tactical Combat-focused (4E)--and other versions of the game tend to land in the middle area bounded by those three. 5E is placing itself squarely in the middle.

  Folks who play OSR games for the heavy exploration focus will probably stick with those, but those who just want something lighter than the other two tentpoles and don't care about logistical details and the nitty-gritty of dungeon/hexcrawl exploration may adopt 5E, especially if it's well-supported and popular. Similarly, PF fans may move towards it if they want something lighter, and just start using their Adventure Paths with 5E rules.

  4E's audience (which I count myself as part of--I do actually like the game and a lot of what it tried to do) will probably not switch altogether; the audience has been trimmed down to those who appreciate the game for what it is, and 5E isn't trying to be the same thing. But they may adopt the game as an alternative or something that does different things.

  And that's the other thing that I think may help--less of a 'One True Game' approach and more of a 'modern system that looks and feels like D&D' that people can use as part of their library. I know I've been looking for a 'cleaned-up, smoother, more flexible 2E' for a few years now, even after coming around to 4E's virtues, and 5E appears to have the potential to fill that niche. One thing where the Pundit and I actually agree (I think) is that WotC may be targeting 5E as 'everyone's second-favorite D&D'.



  Well, they're subcontracting the adventures--AFAIK, the Starter Set is by Rich Baker and the first adventure path by Kobold Press. As for giving away the rules, in Paizo's case, that's making a virtue of necessity--the OGL means that any mechanical stuff they create that hooks heavily into their basic rules has to be Open in turn.

You're pretty spot on in my opinion. I've been looking for is a toolkit game like FantasyCraft that I could configure into a modern 2e with dashes of 3e. Looks to me 5e is right on target.

Quote from: Marleycat;757220What's funny about the situation is that this site is having the most balanced discussion about the game between ENWorld, TBP and the WotC boards and here.

I almost think it may be for the best that the primary battlefield of the latest edition war seems to be out here in the (relative) boonies.

I think the 2nd favourite version call pretty much nails it and I think that is a winning approach because it will also have the benefit of being the 'official' version and theoretically the one supported by the most and highest quality products.

Despite having had a lot of fun with non WOTC games since the release of the execrable 4E (LotFP, SWN, PF) I have missed walking into the game store and checking out the D&D shelf.

I think there is an undercurrent of people looking forward to unifying under the big tent. Not everyone of course and as always the most strident are loud and proud on the message boards, but I suspect that 5E will grab a fair bit of market share from 4E, PF, 3E and the OSR as one of the games they will play (or at least purchase).

Quote from: LibraryLass;757231I almost think it may be for the best that the primary battlefield of the latest edition war seems to be out here in the (relative) boonies.

Not sure I agree but it is nice that we have a place where anyone on the spectrum (OSR-----4e) can talk no holds barred no passive-agresss,ive sniping (because it's right upfront) or clique popularity stuff.. Yes the site is on the Wild West side but at least it's fun and it's too bad so many are missing out.