Quote from: CRKrueger;754574Ok, sure I'll bite.  I'll pretend for a minute that no matter what I write you won't attempt to turn a word or sub phrase into an "AHA!"  Why not, I enjoy  roleplaying in fantasy games, so I can pretend the most ludicrous and unlikely situations.

Simply speaking, Character Generation has to have a means of generating characters, not selecting one that has been pre-generated.  What meets the threshold of generation?  Does every single aspect of the character, including history, backstory, complexion and comparative testicle height need to be determined? No.  However, here are some obvious examples of Chargen.

WFRP1 - Choose or roll race, Roll Profile, determine racial abilities, determine age, choose alignment, determine fate, determine career, determine extra skills, determine mandatory skills, determine equipment, choose free advance.

DCC - Roll ability scores, determine 0-level occupation, choose an alignment, purchase equipment, see if you survive to first level.

Here's a game that doesn't have CharGen.

Warhammer Quest - Choose Pregen Card.  Now some character templates in WHQ included random elements such as pick from a deck for spells.  Having a randomizer for equipment, or even only for wounds, is not chargen.

I really can't wait for the "not-springing" of the trap.

What I was getting at, was trying to figure out where you draw the line.  You said rolling for hp, ability scores, money, and buying equipment were all part of chargen.  Ok, but are they required parts of chargen?

Is a player who chooses an array, starts with max hp, and chooses a pre-determined equipment load out (all things that players did long before 3e came out by the way) doing chargen in your mind?  In Basic, there is no race&class combo choices.  One dwarf is mechanically identical to another.  If someone who uses an array, max hp, and predetermined equipment load out is still doing chargen when they choose to be a dwarf, I'm trying to figure out why they are getting the "full experience" of the game compared to someone who just chooses a pre-made dwarf, who isn't getting that experience, and according to Jeff, is defeating the entire purpose of the game.  On the character sheet, there's no real difference between the two.  And there certainly isn't anything happening during actual game play that differentiates the two.  

So I'd like to have you explain why in that scenario, one person is not playing the RPG experience and the other is.

Quote from: Marleycat;754577Now that's just MEAN. It might not even be factual sir.
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It's not.  My wife is gorgeous and I have a plenty active sex life.  It just goes to show what sort of maturity we're dealing with here, if they've devolved into those sort of arguments.

Quote from: Mistwell;754632So if I can name an RPG that does that, though obviously I changed what the components are (they may not be named class and race and hit points and saves and ability scores, for example), then you would say it's not an RPG? Is that because you don't roll for things, and it's pre-assigned based on which of 16 things you choose?

Don't while knight me. It's not a binary situation for me. But a pregen that you can switch only the numbers you're given for that pregen is still a pregen. For myself that isn't a factor in can you play the game fully. But it is in fact not the full experience in  that you don't have every option. The key is unlike what some are trying to argue is that you need every option for a full RPG you don't. It's pedantic frippery and not relevant to the discussion.

Quote from: Mistwell;754632So if I can name an RPG that does that, though obviously I changed what the components are (they may not be named class and race and hit points and saves and ability scores, for example), then you would say it's not an RPG? Is that because you don't roll for things, and it's pre-assigned based on which of 16 things you choose?

It's like saying Final Fantasy for the Super NES isn't a video game RPG, but Eye of the Beholder is, based solely on the fact that you can spend time creating a custom party in EotB and you can't in FF.

Quote from: jeff37923;754626Now, jibba, are you saying that between 1974 and 2014, humanity just got incredibly less intelligent? So much so that people cannot read and comprehend instructions? Because if so, role-playing games as a hobby are doomed.

Check this out - http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1590-What-is-Happening-to-Tabletop-Roleplaying-Games

QuoteWhat has changed now is that a game like Car Wars can work very well if I'm not getting a new constant stream of games. Because I have all this time wherer I want to be gaming but I can't play a game, so I'll do all the stuff that exists around the game. But now thanks to, like, this phone... [something] smartphones, tablets, Steam, uh, XBox Live, PSN, I can buy games whenever I want.

QuoteAnd so in a lot of ways with D&D, and you know Ryan has the slide, that's really not how we see it at all because for me that boxing match, it isn't D&D against any tabletop roleplaying game, it's D&D versus the entire changing face of entertainment, of how a tabletop roleplaying game... that's the best thing you can do with your friends.

Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

And even if you didn't agree that kids in 1974 looked at gaming differently than the digital natives of today do, would you still fault Wizards for believing it and trying something new?

Quote from: jeff37923;754629I did. Your problem was that you assumed a single sidebar.  Why not sidebars on each relevant page? Plenty of space then.

I merely assumed that because that was what was the 6million dollar cnidaria said in his post.
You may have assumed that he meant add a sidebar to every page but those were not the actual words he wrote down which is what I was referring to.

As an aside you do realize that adding a lot of sidebars to a book does take up room don't you. Its not like the sidebars some how occupy an alternate dimension or would be published in microdot format.... If you put 12 pages of chargen into sidebars they will take up about ....12 pages of space and be bloody difficult to read.

Just sayin....

Quote from: Marleycat;754634Don't while knight me

I don't have any idea what you mean by this.  Even if it was a typo, I have no idea how white knighting would apply to this conversation either.  I am just trying to drill down on what people think is the difference between a complete RPG, and not a complete RPG.  I really do not care if you don't think the Starter Set is a complete RPG or not, i am purely curious why people think one way or the other.

QuoteIt's not a binary situation for me. But a pregen that you can switch only the numbers you're given for that pregen is still a pregen. For myself that isn't a factor in can you play the game fully. But it is in fact not the full experience in  that you don't have every option. The key is unlike what some are trying to argue is that you need every option for a full RPG you don't. It's pedantic frippery and not relevant to the discussion.

OK fair nuff.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754637Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

I certainly see that with some kids I know. No way could I get them to play a TTRPG... not only don't they like to read, they don't even do well with face to face conversations. They live on videogames and sugar.
The kids I know that like to read though... who sit around doing lego animations... who build stuff and draw stuff and model stuff with clay... much better audiences for TTRPGs it seems.
Same as it ever was? Probably not. But even something as simple as a pre-gen isn't fast/explosive enough for the first kid. The second kid really is going to want to make up something out of his head... though he'd probably happily settle for a pre-gen if there was one he liked.
That article suggests the goal is to have the D&D brand compete in the general entertainment market... but I don't see how TTRPGs are ever going to be able to go along on that ride... unless they just become video games.
OK, so the hobby is dead... yay for us!

Quote from: Simlasa;754649I certainly see that with some kids I know. No way could I get them to play a TTRPG... not only don't they like to read, they don't even do well with face to face conversations. They live on videogames and sugar.

I find that people sell kids these days incredibly short. Both literacy and reading for fun have been shown to be WAY up in kids and young adults for a while now. It turns out that if you make young adult fiction that isn't garbage, kids get interested.

http://libraries.pewinternet.org/2013/06/25/younger-americans-library-services/

Yep, my daughter reads more than I ever did when I was her age. The hottest books among boys in my elementary school were Hardy Boys mysteries.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;754654I find that people sell kids these days incredibly short. Both literacy and reading for fun have been shown to be WAY up in kids and young adults for a while now. It turns out that if you make young adult fiction that isn't garbage, kids get interested.

That would be kid number 2 in my anecdote.
People have ALWAYS whined about their younger generations. I'm just saying there are some kids who are might be the audience for TTRPGs... and there are those who won't. The ones who are glued to their video games and tablets and such seem like a much harder draw... so why try for them, by going after the videogame market, when there ARE still plenty of kids interested in reading and creative endeavors?
Push the CREATIVE aspects of RPGs... rather than pushing them to be more instantly gratifying, because there are too many other/better/faster things vying for the instant gratification dollar.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754637Check this out - http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1590-What-is-Happening-to-Tabletop-Roleplaying-Games





Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

And even if you didn't agree that kids in 1974 looked at gaming differently than the digital natives of today do, would you still fault Wizards for believing it and trying something new?

Except this isn't something new.

This is the same shit Wizards have been doing for a decade now with their intro material. The same thing dozens of other companies have tried too.

Even the free Basic PDF isn't new. Stuart's smug joke in the other thread was right.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754633It's not.  My wife is gorgeous and I have a plenty active sex life.  It just goes to show what sort of maturity we're dealing with here, if they've devolved into those sort of arguments.

Dude, argueing logically with you is pointless. I saw that when you made the idiot binary statement that you either like pre-gens or you are a denner.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754637Not 'intelligent' but 'bothered to commit', and yes, yes that probably has changed since 1974, for the reasons in the article.

And even if you didn't agree that kids in 1974 looked at gaming differently than the digital natives of today do, would you still fault Wizards for believing it and trying something new?

OK, that arguement I'll buy. It makes a Hell of a lot more sense than jibba's claim that kids today can't follow instructions and wouldn't now what dice were.

Quote from: jeff37923;754678Dude, argueing logically with you is pointless. I saw that when you made the idiot binary statement that you either like pre-gens or you are a denner.

where?  Quote me saying that, or shut the hell up already, you delusional whiner

More and more of the same...

Why does the past matter? Because the old way is the best way? In your opinion, but NOT in mine.

Character creation is not the ONLY thing. It's not the crown on the cake. It's an important part of the game, certainly, but not the MOST important. It doesn't need to be in a Starter Game. People CAN pick it up later, learn it later, and many of us (experienced mind you, not newbie) GMs agree with the sentiment.

You're just making the same tired arguments over and over.

Saying something 1000 fucking times doesn't make it so.

Your 1000 posts haven't changed our minds.

We hear you. We just think your wrong. Get over it.

This new war between the "Creating it Firsts" versus the "Playing it Firsts" has obviously come to an end. And the "Playing it Firsts" have won.

NOTHING you say is going to CHANGE ANYTHING. NOTHING. It's over. The lot has been cast. The dice have been rolled. So has it been decided!

• One Starter Set with pregens and no character creation
• One Basic Game with basic stuff including character creation
• A "pick and choose" what you will hardcover D&D line with as much or as little options as your heart desires.

We have chiseled your whiny nonsense into the halls of Grognardia where it will sit for all time to glare down upon the opposite wall...  and forgotten. For now into eternity the newbies will be learning D&D OUR WAY. The product will be as WE WANTED IT. You will be forgotten. Your lame words falling on nothingness as we stroll through the halls playing OUR game. Hailed as champions of a new era, bringing the joys of D&D to a world hungry for adventure and imagination!

Lay down your old ways. Pack up your old games. Display your dusty boxes and dog-eared tombs before us. And pay homage. And swear fealty to the new order!! If you cannot bear to surrender in your solemn defeat, then we shall cast you out to the RPG Wastelands, where you can practice your heresy outside the innocent hearing of the new ones we bring into the fold.

As the "Creating it Firsts" drudge out of our hallowed halls, heads hanging low, we will not mourn you. As you attempt to eek out your miserable existence in the RPG wastelands we will bid you no sorrow. For you looked up at the righteous glory of the 5th, and did not see the truth. We bid you one last farewell. Goodnight angry old men.

The End.

Trentin - Loyal champion of the Playing it Firsts. Conqueror of Grogtards.

tl:dr - We win. D&D is coming out the way we wanted it. You'll be forgotten. Nannie Nannie Boo Boo.