Quote from: RPGPundit;754399Um, I'm pretty sure NO ONE is arguing that.  What we do have are people on the other side claiming that character creation is the very core blood-essence of RPGs and that if you don't have it in a beginner's product it will no doubt be: a) doomed to failure and b) a monstrosity that violates the spirit of RPGs.

Both of those are wrong.

There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super Special D&D Club of TRUE Gamers.  Because that's all the other side of this argument is doing: its creating a litmus test. If you don't want to learn how to make a character and spend the first hour of your gaming experience dicking around with skills then you aren't a real roleplayer and don't belong in our elite society.

That's the mentality that's lead to 600 page rulebooks, to 21000 feats in certain editions of D&D, and to the hobby shrinking to a minute shadow of its once-mainstream popularity.  We PUSH PEOPLE AWAY by demanding that they have to learn the "Special Secret Handshake"  of what we consider conditions for fandom.

What I want, and what Wizards has in mind, is that a raw beginner will be treated just like I treated the raw beginners at my demo game of Lords of Olympus a few weeks back in a local con: they get the character, and you explain ROLEPLAYING to them.  THAT is the real essence of RPGs.  That's why argument "b" is bullshit: its not about making characters, its about PLAYING a character.

But NO ONE is saying that two hours after that, these kids shouldn't be downloading the Basic PDF and figuring out how to make their own characters, and start playing their own campaigns, just like gamers have done from time immemorial.

Let's face it, for most new gamers, making a first character (if indeed their first character was made) was a confusing mess of people trying to explain choices to you that you really didn't understand, and you rolling dice to generate numbers that at that time meant almost nothing to you. Its not a golden experience akin to a first kiss, its more like being awkwardly groped by someone you just met at a party.   You only start getting any good at the situation after you've tried it two or three times and had a while to figure out what the fuck is going on.

So all the starter set wants to do is simplify that experience: to get people RIGHT into the actual Role Playing, without any special rules, ordeals, or tests to be passed.  Show them the coolest things first, and easily, and then they'll have a context to understand what makes all the other stuff matter too.

RPGPundit

No, you are wrong.

My arguement has been that when playing a role-playing game whose interface is the Player Character, that the optimal playing experience can be had by creating your own Player Character.

Can you use pre-gens? Sure, but they are sub-optimal IMHO.

No claims of dooming the precious 5E fucking Starter Set. No goddamn declarations of gaming heresy. Nobody said that we needed the Super Special Snowflake Feats and Skills edition and newbies had to memorize it.

If you want to pillory me for daring to suggest that character creation is an integral part of role-playing, and should be in a Starter Set, at least be honest about what I said.

Quote..that character creation is an integral part of role-playing

But this literally isn't correct. Character creation is a completely different thing then role-playing and it's not even required let alone integral to create your own character. It may be preferred and it may be the better choice depending on the circumstances but no it's not required or integral to role-playing in a game.

(My preferred method is to create my own but depending on the game or other circumstances I actually prefer a pregenerated character to just skip the whole mess and play).

Half the fun for me is character generation.  I also enjoy world and adventure building too.  In fact I would say that's what I spent most of time on when I was younger.

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399Let's face it, for most new gamers, making a first character (if indeed their first character was made) was a confusing mess of people trying to explain choices to you that you really didn't understand...

Sounds like me trying to make my first 4e D&D PC back in 2008. I gave up until 2009, a year later, by which time the free character builder software made it fairly easy. If someone had given me a pregen in 2008 things would have gone a lot better, I think.

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super

What I want, and what Wizards has in mind, is that a raw beginner will be treated just like I treated the raw beginners at my demo game etc

1. False dilemma. If 5e basic chargen fits into a single post on a forum (as I proved) then its non-inclusion in the Starter can't be that it's too complicated. No one's argued that either one of pregens OR chargen should be compulsory for ALL RPG-first timers, only that both deserve to be included in the Starter so groups can make that choice themselves of how to start. Saying 'but newbs canno be trusted' or 'but newbs - let me tell you - will run screaming from chargen' makes you sound like a royal prick, and sets the presumptious tone that made early 4e PR and its DMG so grating.

2. "what I want, what WotC wants": you made a prediction in 2009 that, if you were in charge of WotC R&D, you'd have them release ONE BASIC game that's complete AND comes in a box. In the past weeks you've bent backwards to make it seem that WotC' high priest Mearls has taken your cue to make that happen when he did something rather different. Whence your self-congratulatiry posts on 'I made Basic D&D happen, you can thank me all'. Unless *WotC* comes out giving you that credit, you have - at least in my eyes - gambled away a significant chunk of your online integrity and credibility. I'll certainly think twice from now on whether you're even interested in arguing in good faith in all matters related to 5e.

Quote from: jeff37923;754424Can you use pre-gens? Sure, but they are sub-optimal IMHO....character creation is an integral part of role-playing

You don't seem to know what integral means.

If you can use pre-gens and still play a role playing game, then character creation is not integral.  Something that is integral is a NECESSARY element.  The thing cannot function if an integral part is missing.  But, the game CAN function without it.  It might not be, as you say, functioning at optimal rates, but functioning at non-optimal rates is not the same as missing an integral part and therefore not functioning at all.

Just some points to try and keep everyone from strawmanning each other to death.  This thread reads like a logical fallacy wiki.

• Roleplaying is roleplaying, whether with a pregen or a created character.
• The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete.
• Chargen is not charop.  The idea of creating a character is not the build mentality.
• Without chargen, the Starter Set box is not a complete game, Period.
• The Starter Set box is not meant to be a complete game.
• The Starter Set experience, however, can be complete with the online pdf.

Anybody know the answer to this?

Quote from: dragoner;753098... it seems nice they actually did keep it out of the box and as a pdf, because if it was in the box, wouldn't you have to pay for it?

It can also be the accountants wanting to save money on the product, even if it's $0.02, it can make a difference. What is the print run?

Quote from: CRKrueger;754474This thread reads like a logical fallacy wiki.

You're right, for things like this (bolded):

Quote

• Roleplaying is roleplaying, whether with a pregen or a created character.
• The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete.
  
• Chargen is not charop.  The idea of creating a character is not the build mentality.
• Without chargen, the Starter Set box is not a complete game, Period.
  
• The Starter Set box is not meant to be a complete game.
• The Starter Set experience, however, can be complete with the online pdf.

Why?  Because you can in fact experience playing in an RPG without ever having actually generated your own character.  As for the second bolded part, can you play a the game of D&D using only the starter set?  Absolutely you can.  We've been told as much.

If you want to complain about fallacies, how about stop resorting to them?  Being able to create a character expands the benefits of an RPG, and no one is arguing otherwise.  However, you don't need to create a character to play, or experience the game.

It's like arguing that you can't experience or play an RPG unless you gain levels.  Yes you can.  Having level progression sure helps expand the experience, but you don't need them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754474Just some points to try and keep everyone from strawmanning each other to death.  This thread reads like a logical fallacy wiki.

• Roleplaying is roleplaying, whether with a pregen or a created character.
• The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete.
• Chargen is not charop.  The idea of creating a character is not the build mentality.
• Without chargen, the Starter Set box is not a complete game, Period.
• The Starter Set box is not meant to be a complete game.
• The Starter Set experience, however, can be complete with the online pdf.

Sounds about right. At least in general terms without pendantry

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754477Why?  Because you can in fact experience playing in an RPG without ever having actually generated your own character.  As for the second bolded part, can you play a the game of D&D using only the starter set?  Absolutely you can.  We've been told as much.

Since you read the second point, it's weird you missed the first part, where I said roleplaying itself could use either pregen or created.

However, if all a friend did was play pregens and never made up his own character, I assume you wouldn't say "Gee, you're kinda missing out, playing a pregen is fun but making your character is fun, too."  Of course you would, because the without chargen you can have the experience of roleplaying, but not the complete experience of roleplaying.

Here's the that part that apparently your lack of...whatever didn't grant you the comprehesion for:

If you can roleplay with pregens, then obviously you can play a game with pregens.  However, a game that only includes pregens is not a complete game. (Note the word complete.)

As I said before, you can argue that Boxed Set + PDF gives a complete experience, but you cannot argue that the Boxed Set alone is a complete roleplaying game.  But, as I pointed out, it's not meant to be.  I can run modules with it, sure.  I can roleplay with it, sure.  A complete roleplaying game, however, it is not.

Basic will be a complete RPG.  It will not be the complete 5e experience, for that you will need all the 5e books.  However, the plan is that not everyone wants the complete 5e experience, so Basic will be a complete game, something that the Starter Box is not.

My points merely confirm everything that Mearls has said along with WotC release descriptions.  Different products targeting different aspects of the market, attempting to serve all D&D fans no matter the edition, what Mearls has been saying they could do since day 1.

Quote from: Marleycat;754479Sounds about right.

There we go.  Agreement on fact, what a breath of fresh air for this thread.  :hatsoff:

Quote from: Marleycat;754479At least in general terms without pendantry

You mean Pedantry.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754518You mean Pedantry.

Why yes I do.

Quote from: CRKrueger;754517Since you read the second point, it's weird you missed the first part, where I said roleplaying itself could use either pregen or created.

No, I didn't miss it.  But the first was about roleplaying in general, while the second point I bolded is talking about the game.  Let me try to break it down for you.  Lucky for you, there's no basic math involved this time:

"The experience of a roleplaying game, however, needs to include both to be complete."

Since there are roleplaying games out there that do not have character generation, this statement is objectively false.  You may want a game with character generation and no pregens, but you don't need it.  And one certainly isn't required to make their own character in order to experience what a role playing game is.

QuoteHowever, if all a friend did was play pregens and never made up his own character, I assume you wouldn't say "Gee, you're kinda missing out, playing a pregen is fun but making your character is fun, too."  Of course you would, because the without chargen you can have the experience of roleplaying, but not the complete experience of roleplaying.

No I wouldn't, because if that player didn't want to make their own PCs, and were happy playing pregens, who am I to say they're not playing the game the "right way".  That reeks of one-true-wayism.  And quite literally, they are still playing an RPG and getting that experience.  Frankly, telling someone that unless they generate their own character, they aren't experiencing the complete experience of an rpg is elitist bullshit.  Playing the game is what matters and gives that experience, not how many PCs they create.

QuoteIf you can roleplay with pregens, then obviously you can play a game with pregens.  However, a game that only includes pregens is not a complete game. (Note the word complete.)
.

This is a really stupid position to argue for, because it's so blatantly incorrect.  In order to play the game, as a role-playing game is designed to be, you don't need chargen.  There is nothing in the starter box that is preventing people from playing the game.  That's essentially what you're arguing.  People absolutely can take that starter box and play a complete game of D&D.

Now, I suspect that you're going to say it's not a "complete" game without chargen, because you just did.  Let me explain why that's flawed.  As I mentioned, nothing in the definition of an RPG says you can't play it without chargen.  That's game prep, not actual game play.  There is a significant difference.  This is also reinforced by games out there that are RPGs where you don't have customized chargen, and yet strangely, people play them.

Secondly, this statement is only a statement of your personal opinion, and therefore cannot be made as a blanket objective statement like you're making it out to be.  For example, one could also argue that you're not playing a "complete" rpg without mass combat rules.  Or Wilderness exploration rules.  Or castle construction rules.  Or literally any other set of rules that someone may feel is really important to their RPG experience.  It seems your position is one that not having those rules means the game is not "complete" right, because they exist in some other supplement?  That's the logic you're using.  Anything not in the core game means it's not complete.  And that's really a silly argument to try to make.


The really bizarro thing about this whole conversation is that we've had TONS of discussions about how your PC is defined by what you do in the game, and not what you happen to roll or what class you chose (chargen), and it seems that some of the most adamant proponents of that old school argument have flipped the script 100% just so they could bitch about the starter boxed set.

I can only assume that you feel B/X is not a complete game.  Otherwise, tell me the difference between someone saying "I want to play a fighter" and someone saying "here is a fighter to play"?  In Basic, there are no class differences at all between the two.  The only difference is random ability rolls.  I hope you won't argue that not rolling for your own stats means you aren't playing the game, because that infers that people who play with point buy or array aren't playing the game as well.

Now do you see why I qualified my agreement with the creveats of general terms and no PEDENTRY CRKrueger?

Because in truth both you and Sacrosanct are correct but it's completely dependant on what and level of definition you're using and someone like me (target audience for 5e) is using or cares about. You guys following me yet?

Sacrosanct he literally agrees with our position you need to chill.