So far as I can tell the Starter is basically a substantial module (it's been compared to a campaign rather than a single adventure) designed specifically for beginner DMs, plus a booklet of rules help, plus dice and pregens.

If you think of it as a "Starter Adventure" rather than a "Basic Set" then it makes much more sense. Adventures coming with pregens is old and non-controversial. Adventures not coming with character gen rules is old and non-controversial. Adventures coming with enough handy details that you can play it without even consulting the Basic book? That's novel and helpful. Adventures designed to turn curious kids into novice DMs enthusiastic to learn more? That's golden.

Quote from: Omega;753991The Starter is what? A primer? A glorified quick start? A module? Training wheels?

Interesting question. Will they be putting out a player Starter too? Does not look like it. But would be a viable option I think.

A Starter is an introduction. It gives you enough material to play for a while. It doesn't include all of the functionality of the full game, but it should be compatible with the full game. In this case, 5E (the basic version) is simple enough that only the DM needs a book. The players can use pre-gens and just pretty much play.

Q&A came out today that should answer these questions

Quote from: RodneyThe Starter Set is a physical product that contains an adventure, the core rules of the game, pregenerated characters, and dice. It’s intended to be something you can open and start playing with very quickly, providing five levels’ worth of adventure content. It’s what gets you started playing the game. This is a great place for people who have never played D&D to start, because it lets them start having adventures right away using the pregenerated characters.

The Basic rules are going to be a downloadable file that contains the core rules of the game, along with character creation rules and, eventually, monsters magic items, and guidelines DMs need to make adventures. That will allow you to build characters, plan adventures, and play all the way up through 20th level. The Basic rules provide a traditional D&D experience that will allow you to play any adventure—including those in the Starter Set—using only this file. The Basic rules are a great place to start if you’re already familiar with D&D from previous editions and want to try out the fifth edition of the game, or if you want to play through the Starter Set (or other adventures) using characters that you’ve made yourself.

Holy Aberrations Fighter-Man are we still arguing about this?

Look - wouldn't it be safe to say at this point that a) those of us impressed with WOTC's approach are not going to be convinced otherwise and b) those of us insisting that WOTC's crippleware RPG-gateway marketing evil Box Set SUXXORS are not going to be convinced otherwise?

I was just being funny for fucks sake - when I called grognards "grogtards" (But as a comedian I reserve the right to lambaste all tribes, affiliations, and self-identities. Especially since I have logged numerous hours self-lambasting. Which is not the same as self-basting, however similar.) I was ranting. The more reasonable you are in a rant, the less comedic impact it has.

All those who debated on either side are RPG Enthusiasts and how they prefer to play, see the companies supporting the hobby, or what game they prefer to play is just myriad awesome details in a sea of strangeness. I may not agree with everyone, but I'm glad they showed up. :-)

Can't we just agree to disagree at this point and stop kicking each other in the "jimmy" (jimmy = the most painful spot on your specific anatomy regardless of gender, sexual identity or preference...). The horse is not just DEAD, it's been ripped into two pieces and dragged off to each prospective camp...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754046Q&A came out today that should answer these questions

The amount of hassle they could have saved themselves by having that thing up when everything else was announced is immeasurable.

Quote from: Bobloblah;754081The amount of hassle they could have saved themselves by having that thing up when everything else was announced is immeasurable.

Pundit did say that straightaway.

Quote from: Marleycat;754117Pundit did say that straightaway.

That they should've had a FAQ? 'Cause I don't remember him saying much else other than platitudes due to his NDA...

Quote from: Bobloblah;754119That they should've had a FAQ? 'Cause I don't remember him saying much else other than platitudes due to his NDA...

He really did mention that he was frustrated about the order in which things were being leaked like it was ass backwards or somesuch but couldn't say what they aren't leaking because of the NDA. And now with knowing all that we know now he was completely correct.

Quote from: Fiasco;753855Jeff you make excellent points about what is roleplaying but was that how you felt the very first time you played an RPG. Of course over time we become more sophisticated in what we get out if an RPG but on the first exposure there is so much else to take on board that I don't see chargen being an issue.  I get that its not the approach everyone would take but I think its a valid starting strategy to say chargen can be introduced down the line.

IMO what makes or breaks the starter set will be a lot more around the execution if what IS in there rather than what isn't. Most especially it comes down to the instructions supporting a potentially new DM and especially the quality of the starter adventure. Another Keep on the Shadowfell work be disastrous.

I also wonder if all this fuss could have been avoided if the Starter Box appeared later in the release schedule. Probably not.

I understand the side of the arguement you are presenting, I just don't agree with it.

The first time I played was on a Boy Scout campout. I saw what the older boys were playing, asked if I could join, and was told I could take over a henchman. I was handed some d6's and told to roll three of them and do it six times then put them in order. Another boy helped with my bonuses and told me I was a second level fighter and my hit points were this. He already had equipment on a seperate sheet. We then began besieging hill giants.

Not a pre-gen, but not a solo chargen either.

OK, so the Starter Set ain't crippleware because it has pre-gens. The Basic Set doesn't have monsters, magic items, and adventure guidelines but it eventually will. So you need both to get a complete game when it iniatially comes out or you have to wait until the blanks to get filled in on the Basic Set.

Correct?

Quote from: jeff37923;754135OK, so the Starter Set ain't crippleware because it has pre-gens. The Basic Set doesn't have monsters, magic items, and adventure guidelines but it eventually will. So you need both to get a complete game when it iniatially comes out or you have to wait until the blanks to get filled in on the Basic Set.

Correct?

From what I understand about the online release schedule yes.

July 15- starter box, with character gen online.

Aug 19- PHB, with the rest of the basic game online.

Quote from: Omega;753157Telling people that liking chargen or that chargen itself is wrong thinking and stunts gameplay is just way the hell off in the depths of fruitcake land.

Um, I'm pretty sure NO ONE is arguing that.  What we do have are people on the other side claiming that character creation is the very core blood-essence of RPGs and that if you don't have it in a beginner's product it will no doubt be: a) doomed to failure and b) a monstrosity that violates the spirit of RPGs.

Both of those are wrong.

There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super Special D&D Club of TRUE Gamers.  Because that's all the other side of this argument is doing: its creating a litmus test. If you don't want to learn how to make a character and spend the first hour of your gaming experience dicking around with skills then you aren't a real roleplayer and don't belong in our elite society.

That's the mentality that's lead to 600 page rulebooks, to 21000 feats in certain editions of D&D, and to the hobby shrinking to a minute shadow of its once-mainstream popularity.  We PUSH PEOPLE AWAY by demanding that they have to learn the "Special Secret Handshake"  of what we consider conditions for fandom.

What I want, and what Wizards has in mind, is that a raw beginner will be treated just like I treated the raw beginners at my demo game of Lords of Olympus a few weeks back in a local con: they get the character, and you explain ROLEPLAYING to them.  THAT is the real essence of RPGs.  That's why argument "b" is bullshit: its not about making characters, its about PLAYING a character.

But NO ONE is saying that two hours after that, these kids shouldn't be downloading the Basic PDF and figuring out how to make their own characters, and start playing their own campaigns, just like gamers have done from time immemorial.

Let's face it, for most new gamers, making a first character (if indeed their first character was made) was a confusing mess of people trying to explain choices to you that you really didn't understand, and you rolling dice to generate numbers that at that time meant almost nothing to you. Its not a golden experience akin to a first kiss, its more like being awkwardly groped by someone you just met at a party.   You only start getting any good at the situation after you've tried it two or three times and had a while to figure out what the fuck is going on.

So all the starter set wants to do is simplify that experience: to get people RIGHT into the actual Role Playing, without any special rules, ordeals, or tests to be passed.  Show them the coolest things first, and easily, and then they'll have a context to understand what makes all the other stuff matter too.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;754399There's no problem with chargen, except that if you have a group of newbies, in their very FIRST session, the best method can often be to throw them a premade character and just get them playing, instead of demanding that they memorize 48 pages of feats before they actually get to join the Super Special D&D Club of TRUE Gamers.

The real problem there is the '48 pages of feats'... on top of skills and special class abilities and whatnot. Is 5e still going to have all that crap to wade through?

Quote from: Simlasa;754402The real problem there is the '48 pages of feats'... on top of skills and special class abilities and whatnot. Is 5e still going to have all that crap to wade through?

No. Feats in 5e are very limited.

At various points as you level, starting at level 4, you get a stat point.

BUT.

You can instead opt to take a feat instead of the stat point.

And at least in the playtest the feats were open to about anyone. See my comments on the Barbarian with the at will ray of frost and magic missile and the shield bashing Mage. But you have to sacrifice that stat point to get the feat. On top of actually living long enough to even get so far,

Most of the classes get 5. About every 4 levels. Some got more like the Fighter and Rogue.

I assume he said that for effect in BASIC feats are not in play. It's an advanced option only and Omega explained it I think fighters get a chance for 7 feats if the option is being used.