Quote from: jeff37923;753506Haters gonna hate. Meh.

If the two of you were being intellectually honest for a moment, you'd get the point. It amuses me that you both think that this strawman arguement is far more worthy.

I wouldn't use the term "charop" like Mistwell did because I think there's a huge difference between optimizing new characters, and creating them.  That said, it's not a strawman to say you think the purpose of the game is character generation when you literally said that not being able to generate your own characters defeats the purpose of the game.  The way English words work, your statement literally means the purpose of the game is tied to character generation.

Maybe you should stop swilling so much booze

Quote from: Simlasa;753510Oh jeez! I wouldn't go that far. Mistwell, along with others have been kind of insulting with the whole charop/'denners' angle... and other folks throwing around 'grogtards'. But I don't think it's reached the Abyssal Maw standards of excellence yet.

FWIW, the only time I mentioned the charop/denners angle was in direct response to the statement that without your ability to make your own PC, it defeats the purpose of the game.  I made that analogy because that's exactly the type of phrase the Denners have/do use.  They focus on the purpose of the game to generate and optimize characters, not that actual game playing part.

So if Jeff didn't want to be associated with Denners, then he shouldn't have made a statement that is their de facto mantra.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753512I wouldn't use the term "charop" like Mistwell did because I think there's a huge difference between optimizing new characters, and creating them.  That said, it's not a strawman to say you think the purpose of the game is character generation when you literally said that not being able to generate your own characters defeats the purpose of the game.  The way English words work, your statement literally means the purpose of the game is tied to character generation.

Maybe you should stop swilling so much booze

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753516FWIW, the only time I mentioned the charop/denners angle was in direct response to the statement that without your ability to make your own PC, it defeats the purpose of the game.  I made that analogy because that's exactly the type of phrase the Denners have/do use.  They focus on the purpose of the game to generate and optimize characters, not that actual game playing part.

So if Jeff didn't want to be associated with Denners, then he shouldn't have made a statement that is their de facto mantra.

I'm living rent free inside your head. Haters gonna hate. Get a life, dood.

At least this gives me a smile to go into work with.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753516So if Jeff didn't want to be associated with Denners, then he shouldn't have made a statement that is their de facto mantra.

I gave him the benefit of a doubt for not meaning it the way it came off. I can't think of anyone on here who rabidly defends/promotes charop. If they do they must be keeping it to themselves.

Quote from: Marleycat;753500Then do so. Nobody said you don't have options.

Well, yeah. I was going to. That's been my point all along.

Quote from: Ladybird;753542Well, yeah. I was going to. That's been my point all along.

I'm not mad at you. It's just that from the information I have 5e is pretty much what I and my friends want. A medium rules DnD that runs as fast and loose as 2e with some 3e customization and a magic system that ISN'T classic Vancian (it reminds me of Arcana Evolved more then anything). Though there definitely is some 4e in there (not the bad parts though).

And most important of all it will be supported and seems to be going with Pathfinder's publishing model which is a solid one.

Quote from: Marleycat;753547I'm not mad at you. It's just that from the information I have 5e is pretty much what I and my friends want. A medium rules DnD that runs as fast and loose as 2e with some 3e customization and a magic system that ISN'T classic Vancian (it reminds me of Arcana Evolved more then anything). Though there definitely is some 4e in there (not the bad parts though).

And most important of all it will be supported and seems to be going with Pathfinder's publishing model which is a solid one.

I was more confused as to why we were having an argument.

The rest of it sounds like a pretty nice game, I'm considering picking it up and running some at the club next year.

Quote from: Ladybird;753564I was more confused as to why we were having an argument.

The rest of it sounds like a pretty nice game, I'm considering picking it up and running some at the club next year.

No coffee?:D

Quote from: Marleycat;753570No coffee?:D

Coffee at this time in the evening, I won't get to sleep.

Now, beer? That, I need.

Quote from: kythri;753425Good lord, shut the fuck up with the "charop" shit already.

It was a joke...obviously (or at least, obvious to those not already up in arms and looking to take offense).  I was taking a dig at Jeff concerning Traveller, and the fact that you don't really charop in Traveller.

Quote from: JasperAK;752660That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

You know, one could figure that WoTC/Hasbro would be so utterly boneheaded to actually not include a big box near the end of the rulebook saying "GO HERE FOR MORE STUFF! ITS FREE!", but somehow I figure even they might just figure that one out.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: jeff37923;753139Hmmm, I think that character creation and playing a character are different aspects. Yes, I can grab a pre-gen and play it however I want to, but I still have not created that pre-gen. Likewise, I can create any number of different characters and play them all in the same way regardless of what the character sheet says.

What I prefer is to have a character concept in mind which I want to play, then create a character that supports that character concept.

Now, to keep Sacrosanct and the other haters from having a stroke and screaming, "That's denner thinking!" an example of what I mean by character concept is having my PC be a teenage Bard who is entranced by all of the stories and poems of adventure and derring-do which is why he decided to become an adventurer, through playing in several adventures, the Bard would grow older and wiser by learning that those adventures he thought were romantic are actually bloody and painful in reality. The character would have been my take on the Hero's Journey and response to it.

It would be tough to do that level of depth with a pre-gen.

Jeff you make excellent points about what is roleplaying but was that how you felt the very first time you played an RPG. Of course over time we become more sophisticated in what we get out if an RPG but on the first exposure there is so much else to take on board that I don't see chargen being an issue.  I get that its not the approach everyone would take but I think its a valid starting strategy to say chargen can be introduced down the line.

IMO what makes or breaks the starter set will be a lot more around the execution if what IS in there rather than what isn't. Most especially it comes down to the instructions supporting a potentially new DM and especially the quality of the starter adventure. Another Keep on the Shadowfell work be disastrous.

I also wonder if all this fuss could have been avoided if the Starter Box appeared later in the release schedule. Probably not.

Quote from: Benoist;752952Actually, this is you 5vengers who need to step back for a minute and think about the scope of this issue, along with the disproportionate response you're offering on forums like this one in order to defend what amounts to a fuck up.

Somebody criticized the 5e starter set. Not the end of the world. Really.

Oh the ironing.

Quote from: jeff37923;752820EDIT:

So if WotC didn't think that the Starter Set was crippleware without chargen, then why create the http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527]Basic Set?[/URL]

This is kind of like saying "if the public school board didn't think that their schools are fire hazards then why did they install fire exits in all of them??"

Obviously, IF there were no way to make characters, then the starter set would be crippleware. But there IS A WAY TO MAKE CHARACTERS, AND ITS COMPLETELY FREE.  

Ergo, NOT CRIPPLEWARE.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;753984This is kind of like saying "if the public school board didn't think that their schools are fire hazards then why did they install fire exits in all of them??"

Obviously, IF there were no way to make characters, then the starter set would be crippleware. But there IS A WAY TO MAKE CHARACTERS, AND ITS COMPLETELY FREE.  

Ergo, NOT CRIPPLEWARE.

RPGPundit

Isnt that like putting the fire exits in another building?:rolleyes:

Better anology might be that the Starter is a preview for for a movie/TV series. Except the movie is free and has the character backgrounds.

Its not what some think it is. But because it looks like item A it must be item A too.

Doom that came to Atlantic City. Oh noes! The board looks like the devil game Monopoly! It MUST BE Monopoly! The Next Starter looks like a classic Basic. It must be! And ok Yeah. I fell into that mindset too at first.

The Starter is what? A primer? A glorified quick start? A module? Training wheels?

Interesting question. Will they be putting out a player Starter too? Does not look like it. But would be a viable option I think.