Quote from: mcbobbo;753238Point being, 'teenage' isn't statistical.  Neither is 'bard'.  So, what's left?

Whether your bard is strong, fast, tough, smart, wise or pretty. You know, the six basic attribute scores, that affect your chances of success at a lot of things in the game.

You can say that the character is any of the above, you can want them to be any of the above, but if their six stats say otherwise, it ain't going to happen. If you're stuck using pregens and the values don't match what you want for your bard, say it's a smart bard but you want to play an agile one, you're not going to get the type of character you want to play.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753150Protip Jeff:  If you don't want people making an analogy between your statements and what a Denner says, then stop saying things Denners say:

"If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game."

After all, I can only go off of the words you actually say.

Amusingly, you are the only one making that analogy. Everyone else seems to get it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;753176I don't give a shit about what's in the starter set. I'm not a starter.

I'm a vet. Therefore i care not about the arguments for or against what is contained in a starter set.

Likewise, i have a computer - therefore i'm gonna download Basic and play the fuck out of it. Maybe even go the whole hog if i fancy it and actually buy stuff.

How'd you like them apples?

They will make a great pie.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753190I don't really see why, or at a minimum I don't see why you can't with just the tiniest bit of fiat.

"Can my character be a teenager?"

"Um, so long as you don't try and change the stats because of that, sure!"

Also, 'Bard' is a problem, even with the chargen in Basic:



So, e.g. a Gnomish Bard is going to require the PHB.

In the case of D&D 5E, yeah, I see where you are coming from. In the case of RPGs in general, I see character creation by the player of that character as optimal.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753190But in my mind this is totally okay.

Excelsior!

Quote from: Spinachcat;753281Crippleware...now with PDFs!!!

If a RPG Starter Set is designed to turn newbs into DMs, then this Starter is missing the section on how a newb DM helps newb players to make their very first characters.

Having a PDF (or an SRD) is no substitute for Chargen in the Starter where the DM learns how to lead a group in creating their 1st level characters. If you want to put all leveling up stuff as a PDF (or SRD), that's whatever, but there is NO REASON to not have 1st level chargen in your Starter set.

I am not against pregens for quick play, but if the free White Wolf quickstarts can put chargen in their pamphlets, I am not buying any arguments that WotC can't do it in their $13 box.

Even the Descent boardgame has chargen, not pregens.

I don't know who said "can't" but I agree that it would be an idiotic argument.   Particularly when WoTC is putting it in a complimentary, free product.  That alone says they clearly could have included it if they wanted to.

I also don't understand how the "crippleware" label is justified.   Acrobat Reader isn't "crippleware" because it only lets you READ PDF (the horror!)

Quote from: Ladybird;753332Whether your bard is strong, fast, tough, smart, wise or pretty. You know, the six basic attribute scores, that affect your chances of success at a lot of things in the game.

You can say that the character is any of the above, you can want them to be any of the above, but if their six stats say otherwise, it ain't going to happen. If you're stuck using pregens and the values don't match what you want for your bard, say it's a smart bard but you want to play an agile one, you're not going to get the type of character you want to play.

Character Generation in basic DnD is roll 3d6 in order. Or roll 3d6 and place them wherever you want. Or roll 4d6 drop the lowest. or do whatever the hell process you do to generate random numbers. You'd still have the above problem if you "generated" your PC.

DnD is not a point buy system at least at basic level therefore it matters not if you get said numbers from dice or a list, or a pregen.

Even later editions had you pick from certain pre generated stat lines which sounds shockingly like what you'd do if you took the pregens, stripped them of "fluff and just moved around the numbers.

Honestly at this point if people can't comprehend this they are one of two things:
1) arguing for the sake of arguing
2) a complete novice to roleplaying, but dont worry I heard this new starter  set is coming out!

Quote from: mcbobbo;753391I don't know who said "can't" but I agree that it would be an idiotic argument.   Particularly when WoTC is putting it in a complimentary, free product.  That alone says they clearly could have included it if they wanted to.

Yup. From the first playtest document. It was literally too obtuse and fun-stopping to include.
-------
Creating a Character

You begin playing the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game by creating a character: the persona you play during the game. Before you start, you might find it helpful to think about the basic kind of character you want to play. You might be a courageous knight, a skulking rogue, a fervent cleric, or a flamboyant wizard. Or you might be more interested in an unconventional character, such as a brawny rogue who likes to mix it up in hand--‐to--‐hand combat, or a sharpshooter who picks off enemies from afar.

Step by Step

Follow these steps in order to create any character you want to play.

1. Determine Ability Scores
Much of what your character does in the game depends on his or her abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Each ability has a score, which is a number you record on your character sheet. To begin, you generate ability scores randomly. Roll four 6--‐sided dice and record the total of the highest three rolls on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. In step 4, you will assign these numbers to your character’s ability scores. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can assign a standard set of scores to your character’s abilities: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. The numbers you determine in this step are only the foundation of your character’s abilities, not the full picture. As you make other decisions during character creation, one or more of these numbers will be improved. Your Dungeon Master might instruct you to generate your character’s ability scores by another method.

2. Choose a Race
Every character belongs to a race, a species in the fantasy world. The most common player character races are dwarves, elves, halflings, and humans. See the “Races” document for more information. Other races might be available, at your Dungeon Master’s discretion. Gnomes, half--‐ elves, and half--‐orcs are also included in the “Races” document. The race you choose contributes to your character’s identity in an important way, by establishing general appearance and natural talents gained from culture and ancestry. Your character’s race grants particular racial traits, such as adjustments to ability scores, special senses, talent with certain weapons, or the ability to use minor spells. These traits sometimes dovetail with the capabilities of certain classes (see step 3). For example, the racial traits of lightfoot halflings make them exceptional rogues, while high elves tend to be powerful mages. Your race also indicates the languages your character can speak, plus a number of bonus languages based on your Intelligence modifier. Your DM may let you choose a regional language, or even an exotic language, instead of a standard language, depending on his or her campaign. Record the traits granted by your race on your character sheet.

3. Choose a Class
Every character is a member of a class. Class broadly describes what profession your character pursues, what special talents he or she possesses, and the tactics he or she is most likely to employ when exploring a dungeon, fighting monsters, or engaging in a tense negotiation. The most common classes are cleric, fighter, rogue, and mage. Clerics are champions endowed with magic from the gods, fighters are tough warriors and weapon specialists, rogues are experts in many areas of expertise and skullduggery, and mages are masters of arcane magic. See the documents dealing with those classes for more about them. Any of six other classes might be available, at your Dungeon Master’s discretion: barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, and ranger. Your character receives a number of benefits from your choice of class. Many of these benefits are class features—capabilities that set your character apart from members of other classes. Record all the starting character information and class features granted by your class on your character sheet.

4. Choose a Background
Your character has a background, a story that describes where he or she came from, his or her original occupation, and the character’s place in the D&D world. You can select the background suggested in your character’s class description or choose a different one from among those in the “Backgrounds and Skills” document. Your DM might offer additional backgrounds beyond the ones included there. A background gives your character a background trait (a general benefit), proficiency in three skills, proficiency with certain kinds of equipment, and sometimes one or more additional languages. Record this information on your character sheet.

5. Assign Ability Scores
Now that you have decided on your character’s race and class, you have a good idea where to put your best ability scores. For example, if you created a fighter, you probably want Strength to be your highest score, and if you chose high elf as your race, you get a boost to Intelligence and are well suited to the mage class. Go back to the six numbers you came up with during step 1. Write each number beside one of your character’s six abilities to assign scores to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Afterward, make any changes to your ability scores as a result of your race and class choices. After these adjustments, a score can be no higher than 20. This is a good time to determine your ability modifiers. See the “Ability Modifiers” section of the “How to Play” document. Write down the modifier beside each of your scores, inside the brackets printed on your character sheet.

6. Choose Equipment Your background and class both suggest packages of starting equipment, including weapons, armor, and other adventuring gear. You can choose these packages to get started quickly. Alternatively, you can purchase your starting equipment. You have 175 gold pieces (gp) to spend. See the “Equipment” document for details. Once you have decided on your character’s starting equipment, record these items on your character sheet.
 
7. Fill in Numbers
 It’s a fact of the adventuring life that characters get into trouble. They fight with monsters and other hostile beings, they deal with traps and hazards that threaten to waylay them, and they endure brutal environmental conditions. Several important numbers determine how well your character succeeds in combat and other perilous situations: hit points (hp), Hit Dice (HD), Armor Class (AC), initiative modifier, and attack bonuses. You can find more information about these numbers in the “Combat” section of the “How to Play” document. Hit points. Your character’s hit points define how tough your character is in combat and other dangerous situations. Your character’s class description indicates how to calculate this number, which is also your hit point maximum. As you increase in level, this maximum increases too. Follow the instructions for your class, and record your character’s hit points on your character sheet. Hit Dice. A character who rests can use Hit Dice to recover hit points. A character gets one Hit Die per level. The die’s type is determined by class (and sometimes other features). On your character sheet, record the type of Hit Die your character uses and the number of Hit Dice you have. (For a 1st--‐level character, this number is 1.) Armor Class. Your character’s Dexterity modifier, armor and shield (if any), and other features contribute to your Armor Class, which represents how well your character avoids being hit in battle. If you aren’t wearing armor, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. Otherwise, calculate your AC using the numbers given for your armor or shield in the “Equipment” document, and record the total. Initiative modifier. Characters act in combat in a sequence according to their initiative. Your character’s initiative modifier equals your Dexterity modifier plus any modifiers from class, race, or other features. Once you have determined your initiative modifier, note it on your character sheet. Attack modifiers. A character can make two kinds of attacks: melee (hand--‐to--‐hand combat) and ranged (attacks made from a distance). Your melee attack modifier is your Strength modifier plus bonuses or penalties from other sources. Your ranged attack modifier is your Dexterity modifier plus bonuses or penalties from other sources. You add your proficiency bonus (+1 for a 1st--‐level character) to attack rolls with weapons you’re proficient with. Write down your total attack modifiers, using the weapons your character wields, on your character sheet. Some characters can cast spells. If your character can, your class description states which ability (usually Intelligence or Wisdom) your character uses for your spellcasting. This is most commonly used when a spell requires the target to make a saving throw; your class description explains how to calculate the Difficulty Class (DC) for this saving throw against the spells you cast. Record this saving throw DC on your character sheet.
Proficiency Characters can acquire proficiency—from their class, race, background, and feats—in any of a variety of equipment, skills, and saving throws. Proficiency is often reflected in the addition of a character’s proficiency bonus (derived from the character’s level) to an ability check, saving throw, or attack roll. Armor. You need to be proficient with armor to wear it effectively. If you put on armor that you cannot use, you have disadvantage on checks, saving throws, and attack rolls that involve Strength or Dexterity. Weapons. When you attack with a weapon you’re proficient with, you add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll. If you attack with a weapon you’re not proficient with, you have disadvantage on the attack roll (and you don’t add your proficiency bonus). Saving Throws. When you have proficiency in a specific kind of saving throw, you add your proficiency bonus to your saving throws of that type. Skills. When you have proficiency in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus to ability checks you make that involve that skill. Tools. When you have proficiency with a kind of tool, you add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.
8. Describe Your Character
Here’s where you fill in the physical and personality details about your character. Spend a few minutes thinking about what he or she looks like and how he or she behaves in general terms. It’s a good idea to take into account your character’s ability scores and race when making these decisions.
Name You should come up with a suitable name for your character. Your character’s race description includes name suggestions for members of that race.
Physical Traits You can decide on your character’s height and weight, using the information provided in your race description, as well as hair, eye, and skin color, and age if desired. To add a touch of distinctiveness, you might want to give your character an unusual or memorable physical characteristic, such as a scar, a limp, or a tattoo. Note these details on your character sheet.
Goals and Motivations A backstory, even if it’s brief, can help guide you when roleplaying your character. Background and specialty are good starting points for thinking about your character’s goals, taking into account upbringing, homeland, life--‐changing events, training, and the like. You might also want to discuss your character’s goals and motivations with your DM; talking about these details paves the way for the DM to craft adventures that get the players involved.
Alignment A typical creature in the worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS has an alignment, which broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes. Alignment is a combination of two factors: one identifies morality (good, evil, or neutral), and the other describes attitudes toward society and order (lawful, chaotic, or neutral). […]
Personality Some notes about your character’s personality can breathe life into your roleplaying. How does your character respond to stress, danger, or moral crises? Perhaps he or she has an unusual behavioral or personality quirk, such as a nervous tic, a lisp, or a raspy voice.
9. Play!
Once you create your character, you’re ready to start playing. Each character plays a role within a party, a group of adventurers working together for a common purpose. Teamwork and cooperation greatly improve your party’s chances to survive the many dangers you face in the worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. Talk to your fellow players and your DM to decide whether your characters know one another, how they met, and what sorts of quests the group might undertake.

Races
The worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS feature a rich tapestry of cultures and societies, kingdoms and empires, lands populated by beings both strange and familiar. Although humans are the most common peoples in the game’s worlds, they exist alongside many other humanoid races. The most common are dwarves, elves, and halflings, followed by gnomes, half--‐elves, and half--‐orcs. Your Dungeon Master might allow other races as well; this document also includes dragonborn, drow, kender, tieflings, and warforged. Your character belongs to one of these peoples. Your choice of race affects many different aspects of your character. It establishes fundamental qualities that exist throughout your character’s adventuring career. When making this decision, keep in mind the kind of character you want to play. For example, a halfling could be a good choice for a sneaky rogue, a dwarf makes for a stout warrior, and an elf can be a master of arcane magic. Each race’s description includes information to help you roleplay a character of that race, including personality, physical appearance, and features of society. These details are only suggestions to help you think about your character; adventurers can and do deviate widely from the norm for their race.

Dwarf
 Many ages have passed since the dwarven kingdoms commanded the world. Their mightiest strongholds, delved into misty mountains, have long since fallen into shadow’s hands. The magnificent walls now lie in rubble, shattered by giants’ boulders and invaders’ siege engines. Where once dwarf miners tunneled through rock and toiled at the forges, now orcs and goblins roam. The fabulous riches for which they are famed have been plundered by enemies from below. And yet, the dwarves remain. They remember their ancient glories. And they crave vengeance gainst the enemies who brought them low.
As a dwarf, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Adjustment: Your Constitution score increases by 1. Size: Medium. Speed: 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor with which you have proficiency or for carrying a heavy load. Darkvision: You can see in darkness within 60 feet of you as if it were dim light. When you do so, your vision is in black and white. Dwarven Resilience: You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage. Dwarven Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the battleaxe, handaxe, throwing hammer, and warhammer. Stonecunning: You have advantage on any Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of particular stonework. Additionally, when exploring underground environments, you cannot become lost. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Dwarvish.

Elf
Elves are an ancient and powerful people, whose years are long and whose passions run deep. They form tight communities in hidden forests but mingle freely with other humanoids, always welcome yet never at home. Elves favor things of natural and simple beauty and are famed for their poetry, dance, song, lore, and magical arts. When danger threatens their woodland homes, however, they reveal a stern martial side, demonstrating skill with sword, bow, and battle strategy.
As an elf, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Adjustment: Your Dexterity score increases by 1. Size: Medium. Speed: 30 feet. Low--‐Light Vision: You can see in dim light as well as you do in bright light. Elf Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the long sword, short sword, shortbow, and longbow. Keen Senses: You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks. Fey Ancestry: You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic cannot put you to sleep. Trance: Elves do not need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Elvish. Subrace: Choose a subrace.

Human
Short‐lived but influential far beyond their years, humans have rapidly spread across the worlds of D&D. Most are the descendants of pioneers, conquerors, traders, travelers, refugees, and others on the move. As a result, human lands are home to a mix of people—physically, culturally, religiously, and politically diverse. Hardy or fine, light--‐skinned or dark, showy or austere, primitive or civilized, devout or impious, humans run the gamut.
As a human, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Adjustment: Your ability scores each increase by 1. Size: Medium. Speed: 30 feet. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;753398Character Generation in basic DnD is roll 3d6 in order. Or roll 3d6 and place them wherever you want. Or roll 4d6 drop the lowest. or do whatever the hell process you do to generate random numbers. You'd still have the above problem if you "generated" your PC.

Actually, no. If you really generated your PC then you would roll stats then parse the results into a character of some sort. That is the difference between actual character generation and just rolling stats.

Besides just numbers the fluff stuff about a character can be important for a first impression.

Imagine a group of young boys getting a starter set and setting up for play:

" Everyone pick a character and lets get started."

" Umm. This elf has tits. I don't wanna play a girl."

" Yeah and this dwarf looks retarded. I wanna play a human fighter."

" Aw man why do I get stuck playing the short guy."

" I'll trade you my elf girl."

Quote from: jeff37923;753350Amusingly, you are the only one making that analogy. Everyone else seems to get it.

Get what?  That if you play with pregens it defeats the whole point of the game like you said?

No Jeff, no one else "gets that".  The only person to remotely defend you is Benoist (defense by calling everyone else names; even he refuses to actually say if he agreed with you or not), and several people have said you're both off the rails on this one.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say that "everyone else gets".

Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753405Actually, no. If you really generated your PC then you would roll stats then parse the results into a character of some sort. That is the difference between actual character generation and just rolling stats.

Besides just numbers the fluff stuff about a character can be important for a first impression.

Imagine a group of young boys getting a starter set and setting up for play:

" Everyone pick a character and lets get started."

" Umm. This elf has tits. I don't wanna play a girl."

" Yeah and this dwarf looks retarded. I wanna play a human fighter."

" Aw man why do I get stuck playing the short guy."

" I'll trade you my elf girl."

See that makes sense and I agree to some degree.

That being said the sort of children that this starter set hopes to hook should have enough imagination to figure out how to use the system however they want. ie your elf girl is now a boy.

When my friends started gaming all we had were some of an uncles "weird dice" and a very base understanding how dnd worked via word of mouth, and we played quite a few sessions this way before we got the uncles Moldvay book. And after a few sessions with the book the first thing we did was split race and class because we didnt like it as one. This was all before the internet, we just figured it out in my backyard. Was it how ADnD did it? no. Was it balanced? no Did we have fun and did it spark what is now a 20 year long hobby? hell yes.

I wouldn't underestimate the creativity of children. Especially ones that are interested enough in dwarves, wizards and dragons, that they buy a starter set.

Quote from: Mistwell;753411Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

Good lord, shut the fuck up with the "charop" shit already.

Quote from: kythri;753425Good lord, shut the fuck up

Wise words.

Quote from: kythri;753425Good lord, shut the fuck up with the "charop" shit already.

No shit, Mistwell and 5acrosanct are starting to sound like Seanchai and Abyssal Maw from back in the day.

Quote from: Mistwell;753411Given in Jeffs preferred game you can die during character generation, is it any surprise he's focused on charop?

And what a glorious charop it is!!!