Quote from: Brad;752992The real issue with all the bitching about Starter vs. Basic vs. free PDF vs. PHB is that none of us are in any real position to legitimately analyze which is better for the market. Say what you want about Hasbro, I am sure they know wtf they're doing.

Right, exactly! And that was proven when they released the OGL, created their worst competition, published 4e, and promptly lost their lead in the marketplace. Wait, what?

Quite frankly, I'm amazed this flamefest even began, let alone is dragging on for so long.

I mean, I like to think we can agree that:

* chargen is important to an rpg, and a pretty big deal, especially for experienced players.
* you don't need to generate your own PC to play the game
* chargen isn't the entire point of what an rpg is
* lack of chargen doesn't suddenly turn the game into a boardgame.
* we'd all like to see at least some basic chargen rules in the starter set

Not sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

Why can't someone think the absence of them in the starter deck is a mistake without being told to "not worry about it", just like why can't someone think that the lack of chargen rules in the starter set isn't that big of a deal without being told they are missing the point of what an RPG is all about?

Quote from: estar;752984You HAVE to make a character to play an RPG, the game doesn't work otherwise.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752988Outright false.  You have to *have* a character to play the game.  You don't have to *make* a character to do so.  Seeing as how people have been "playing the game" with pregens for decades clearly disproves your statement.

So where do the pre-gens come from? Somebody has to create them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752993That's how I see it.  Basic rules, most common monsters (orcs, goblins, etc) will be part of the Basic set.  The Big Three will have feats, subclasses, exotic classes, beholders, mind flayers, etc.  I.e., you could play both side by side in the same game if you wanted.

And weren't they promising that all along?

This is presumably why you have the "stat bonus or take a feat" rule in the playtest - in Basic you won't be taking feats but just get a stat bonus, but they've tried to optimise it so that a level 7 basic fighter and a level 7 full-PHB half-tiefling druid can meaningfully adventure in the same party - and as far as the actual mechanics go, provided the relevant players understand their own characters, they'll understand all the rules they directly interact with.

Quote from: jeff37923;753005So where do the pre-gens come from? Somebody has to create them.

*sigh*
Both your and his interpretation are potentially correct, depending on the intended use of "you" in estar's post. You both need to just give the "gotcha!" stuff a rest.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753001Quite frankly, I'm amazed this flamefest even began, let alone is dragging on for so long.

I mean, I like to think we can agree that:

* chargen is important to an rpg, and a pretty big deal, especially for experienced players.
* you don't need to generate your own PC to play the game
* chargen isn't the entire point of what an rpg is
* lack of chargen doesn't suddenly turn the game into a boardgame.
* we'd all like to see at least some basic chargen rules in the starter set

Not sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

Why can't someone think the absence of them in the starter deck is a mistake without being told to "not worry about it", just like why can't someone think that the lack of chargen rules in the starter set isn't that big of a deal without being told they are missing the point of what an RPG is all about?

I think the popping sound of you pulling your head out of your ass just deafened me, possibly the entire North American continent.

Now if you could just admit you fucked up with your denner quips and I just might believe in miracles again.

Quote from: estar;752984 The point of RPGs is to play an imagined character in another place experiencing various situation. So yes I agree with Benoist that character generation is very much the "point" of the game.

The disconnect here is some people are associating character generation SOLELY with a series of dice rolls, formulas, and mechanics. While others are talking about character generation in its broadest sense.

You HAVE to make a character to play an RPG, the game doesn't work otherwise.

Now where I disagree with Benoist and others is that pre-gens are inferior to going through a series of steps using the game's mechanics. I say it depends on what you are trying to do.

The combination of a substantial PDF and Starter Set oriented toward Referee with pre-gens so far is acceptable to me. Not ideal but good enough. I would have done it slightly differently. But hey! It may work better than the ideas I had.

Agreed. But it also depends on what type of pregens we are talking about. Something like Dragonlance? No go but something like Star Wars? Sure!

Quote from: Marleycat;753021Agreed. But it also depends on what type of pregens we are talking about. Something like Dragonlance? No go but something like Star Wars? Sure!

Probably a variant on Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, Regdar, & Lidda.

Quote from: Marleycat;753021Agreed. But it also depends on what type of pregens we are talking about. Something like Dragonlance? No go but something like Star Wars? Sure!

Which Star Wars? For the d6 version of the game, there is still a lot of difference in practice between a template and a pre-gen.

Quote from: Warthur;753010And weren't they promising that all along?

This is presumably why you have the "stat bonus or take a feat" rule in the playtest - in Basic you won't be taking feats but just get a stat bonus, but they've tried to optimise it so that a level 7 basic fighter and a level 7 full-PHB half-tiefling druid can meaningfully adventure in the same party - and as far as the actual mechanics go, provided the relevant players understand their own characters, they'll understand all the rules they directly interact with.

Yep. At first I didn't understand that option given everybody was saying the stat bump is way better but as they made the classes more complete and allowed for you to mix and match feats and stat bumps in any combination with the fact that if you multiclass you get neither choice it really makes sense.

Quote from: jeff37923;753023Which Star Wars? For the d6 version of the game, there is still a lot of difference in practice between a template and a pre-gen.

I was thinking of the D6 version when I wrote that.

Oh my gosh!

Quote from: Simlasa;752839Yeah... the Basic version looks like the way to go. Screw the 'Starter Set', it can go die in a fire.

Total hyperbole on my part.
Is there a 'smiley' for hyperbole? Am I the only who admits to indulging in it here?
Again, for the record, I have a very low interest in any of this.
I'm generally not a D&D guy except through some OSR games, relatively recently. My interest in 5e was only raised, slightly, by the idea of being able to buy a cheap boxed set that was either mistakenly implied or inferred or a bit of both to be 'complete'... and the arguing that ensued over what 'complete' is for an RPG... what 'basic', 'starter' and 'beginner' mean... blah, blah, blah.
Saying 'it can go die in a fire' was just me slamming the door on this argument thread because the Basic is what I'd hoped the Starter would be. Over and done.
Do I still think the Starter is a lesser thing that could have been better... yep. Am I crying tears, raising my blood pressure, doing anything except enjoying a bit of argument on an internet forum about RPGs? Nope.
My issues with the Starter were entirely ideological and aesthetic... nothing to do with 5e as a whole because I really have no clue about what changes it brings.

Because I really don't care and never got hot about it I've tried to play nice and not make any of it personal... no insults... unlike Trenchiron, Marleycat, Mistwell... who can't seem to keep it in their pants.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753001I mean, I like to think we can agree that:

* chargen is important to an rpg, and a pretty big deal, especially for experienced players.
* you don't need to generate your own PC to play the game
* chargen isn't the entire point of what an rpg is
* lack of chargen doesn't suddenly turn the game into a boardgame.
* we'd all like to see at least some basic chargen rules in the starter set

Yep, agreed.

QuoteNot sure why he have this big disconnect between "OMFG! No chargen rules in the starter set means the game fucking sucks and you miss the whole point!" and "The chargen rules are free online so shut up and quit whining!"

Because this is the internet? Because everyone talks in absolutes and draws lines in the sand over... everything.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752983For Christ's sake Benoist, grow a pair for once.

The day you'll admit to being being wrong and an asshole in conversations like this one without trying to weasel your way around it at the 11th hour is the day I'm going to be impressed.

Quote from: Marleycat;753027Yep. At first I didn't understand that option given everybody was saying the stat bump is way better but as they made the classes more complete and allowed for you to mix and match feats and stat bumps in any combination with the fact that if you multiclass you get neither choice it really makes sense.

From the get go, I've always said the choice isn't an obvious one.  During the Denner invasion here, and normal posters at TBP, you had a lot of people argue that a stat bump was always best, but that's because they couldn't think outside of the box.  Even on the earlier versions of the classes, there were several combinations that were either mathmatically more effective (assassin rogue with alertness feat), or might not have seemed more effective from a DPS perspective, but in actual game play allowed you to do a lot (the arcane archer feat for example)

The problem with people who said stat bumps always were better only looked at the game from a DPS POV, rather than an actual play POV.

Quote from: Benoist;753037The day you'll admit to being being wrong and an asshole in conversations like this one without trying to weasel your way around it at the 11th hour is the day I'm going to be impressed.

So that's a "no" then.  You refuse to answer that simple question.  Insulting me like this doesn't change the fact that you refuse to do so.  Thus my comment about your lack of integrity and/or courage, because I can't for the life of me figure out what other reason you'd have for refusing to answer that simple question.