Quote from: Saplatt;752730I had no idea who the "denners" were ... until you mentioned that.

Sorry for that given it's better you live in ignorance about that particular term.

Quote from: Benoist;752731YOU are calling me obtuse?

I am LITERALLY LAUGHING OUT LOUD behind my screen right now. The irony, it is KILLING me!

Yeah, I am.  Or do you in fact believe that without chargen, the game is not any different than a boardgame like Wrath of Ashardalon?  Do you also believe that unless you make your own PCs, you're missing the entire point of the game?

Because these are statements you're defending, or saying don't exist in your quote I posted from the other thread.

So could you please answer that question for me?  Do you agree with those two statements?

Quote from: Simlasa;752732That's why it should be presented as an open-ended 'what sort of character would you like to play'... with NO stress on how that character will manage in the game, how optimal its stats are.
Most fantasy archetypes I'd expect people to come up with can be filtered down into the basic classes. You'll have to talk down the kid with dreams of the robot ninja who can turn into a dragon... but stuff like 'magical princess' and 'armored guy with a huge axe' are simple.

Excellent points. But what you are suggesting requires us to be there to lead them through it and there just aren't enough of us, even if we had the time.  

Quote from: Simlasa;752732So you're saying that RPGs need to be more like boardgames?

They shouldn't be categorically harder to learn.  But my experience says they are.

Quote from: Simlasa;752732A more limited, controllable, marketable experience?

That has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: Simlasa;752732I'm thinking WOTC agrees with you.

God, let's hope so.
       

Quote from: Simlasa;752732Because after the first few games D&D might be rooted in their minds as a game you play with pre-generated characters.

Nonsense.

Quote from: Simlasa;752735Nope, that was my fault for bad editing. I've fixed it now.

Guess you should read the review also. Hint for you... you meet Tiamat? You failed and died. Damned harsh for a 12-15th level character right...

Quote from: Marleycat;752737Sorry for that given it's better you live in ignorance about that particular term.

I already got voted off that particular island.

Quote from: Simlasa;752735Meanwhile I remain entirely UNCONVINCED about any supposed benefits to leaving basic chargen out of the box (except for the benefit to WOTC).

The only thing I can think of is that they can see how many people are downloading the rules. But that doesn't necessarily mean how many people are using them.

I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter-ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

Skipping on this is kinda like not including color on a flat-screen TV because you can always download that option from the internet later on. It doesn't make any sense to me. It is missing one of the chief defining attributes of tabletop role playing games, and what makes them distinctively attractive in addition to all the other sources of entertainment that already exist out there.

It's dumb. Flat out stupid, to me.

And requiring even just one more step, to have to go to a website and download more out of it to finally get to the actual thing that differentiates these games from everything else, is one step too much that already loses X number of newbies who could have been hooked with it if it had been in the starter set to begin with. If you do any kind of website design or anything having to do with ergonomics, you'll know that that one single additional step represents an obstacle for some people who'll just not consider it, move on to something else before they get around to do it, and so on, so forth.  

Is it the end of the world? Nope. Does that mean that 5e itself will suck? I don't know. Will I check it out? I will, I have to. Do I have a grudge against WotC, do I want it to fail? Nope, quite the contrary, actually. Is it still super-dumb to not have character generation in the starter set? It is!

That's my actual position on the subject.

Quote from: Saplatt;752722That probably wouldn't be a bad idea, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it at some point, but it may not be a priority at launch.

You might be right, but my limited experience is the opposite. Especially at the outset, people get too tied up in trying to generate a character without yet knowing the rules or the feel of the game, and too worried about whether option A is a "better" choice than option "B" and so forth. I almost always have to walk them through it. Some people have ideas about who wizards or thieves are and what should be able to do that doesn't remotely resemble 1st level D&D characters.

I give the same kids a boardgame like Talisman and Bam!  They are up and running Eight O'clock, Monday Morning, Day One.      

I assume that having played the game and seeing how things work, the chargen rules and the various other options will make a lot more sense to them than if they just picked it up cold. Why would it be otherwise?

And, like I said, for me it's been the other way around. There's already a huge amount to digest when picking up even the simplest RPG, and the less they have to learn before they start playing, the better. If it's too intimidating at the start, they'll just set the books aside and go back to the video games.

I have no idea how to quote within a quote so hopefully my responses make sense.

I've had the pleasure of introducing people in middle-school to BD&D, AD&D1e, and AD&D2e. In the Army I introduced people to AD&D2e. In my civilian social circles I introduced people with that had experience with AD&D1e to D&D3e and those without experience to BD&D.

BD&D, AD&D1e, AD&D2e were so easy to explain that the only people that didn't get it (the rules) were functionally retarded. Those that I introduced 3e to hated it because of the fiddly bits. We quickly threw out most of the combat rules and were left with what...wait for it...a more modern AD&D.

Of all of those I had introduced, some just didn't get the roleplaying aspect and no amount of character generation could have helped it, and I am quite sure that had I done everything for them (created pre-gens), the outcome would have been the same.

Since many believe that 5e is more like the TSR D&D, I think it will be much easier to understand for new players.

Concerning boardgames, I can't remember if I addressed them in this thread or the other, I wonder how many people got interested in 4e because of Wrath, Legend, Castle Ravenloft, or Gamma World. I doubt many moved on, and I see a Starter set that doesn't showcase the strengths of TTRPGs as useless to the long-term growth of our hobby.

I guess our experiences show how differently people get into the hobby. And it leads me to wonder what WOTC learned about how people started playing D&D: did they learn from others or did they just get the game and learn themselves. In my immediate circle in middle-school, one person introduced me to the game and we then introduced more than a dozen others. When we played we had the benefit of using a system that was much more free form than more modern systems produced by WOTC.

Quote from: Saplatt;752741I already got voted off that particular island.

Well if you were a former Denner you'll live longer and happier for being such formerly.

Quote from: Benoist;752743I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.

I think if millions can figure out how to make a character in WOW, then 5e should be fine. Maybe those people should be invited into our little corner.

'Hey, instead of playing in the programmers world, how about you play in your own. The only limitations are your own.'

Not having chargen does not bode well under any circumstances. There is no way in hell you can persuade anyone that this is a selling point.

I fear that it very possibly means that whoever put this together decided that chargen is "too complicated" for the new guy. Which either (a) underestimates new players or (b) means they have actually made chargen at least as complicated as 4e's.

Whether it "cripples" the starter set, we'll see. But it's not a good sign in any case.

Quote from: Saplatt;752739Excellent points. But what you are suggesting requires us to be there to lead them through it and there just aren't enough of us, even if we had the time.

Well, it could be presented that way in the book, to some degree... but it sounds like you're expecting that a bunch of kids, with no supervision, will be able to pick this up and run it... that they're smart and willing to read the whole thing, that one of them is going to get how to run the game for the others... but somehow they'd all choke at chargen? I think you're selling them short.

QuoteThey shouldn't be categorically harder to learn.  But my experience says they are.

It's not that RPGs are harder to learn... it's that RPGs (up till now) ask for a certain level of creativity and involvement that boardgames do not... and not everyone is willing/able to buy into that.
To me RPGs are a hobby. Hobbies require more time, more creative input, a higher level of interest vs. some folks sitting down to Monopoly.
If you want to D&D to be more like a boardgame I'd bet you would attract more casual players, but in getting there I'd expect you'd have to jettison most all the stuff that makes RPGs distinct. You'd end up with something closer to Descent or Talisman.
 

QuoteThat has nothing to do with it.

It does if WOTC's interests are what's plotting the course.
       

QuoteNonsense.

You don't think people take their first experience of a thing and hold onto it as the pristine example? Isn't that what the 'grognards' are always accused of?

Quote from: Saplatt;752741I already got voted off that particular island.

:idunno: I thought it was a cub scout term myself.

Quote from: Simlasa;752681All the more reason, IMO, to stress that in TTRPGs they CAN create their own character... because otherwise why won't they just stick with that other 99%?

LOL wow way to not comprehend.  I was not referring to "all games in the universe of games".  I was referring to TTRPGs, specifically D&D.

99% of Tabletop Role Playing game sessions of Dungeons and Dragons, of any edition, do not involve creating a character.

You only create a character once, or if there is a lot of death a few times, during an entire campaign.  Most of the time, you're sitting down and just playing.

So if the process of character creation is THE POINT of the game, then why is it almost zero sessions actually experience that thing?

It's a facile, vacuous point.  Grab a character and play.  You want to dicker around with character creation, go online and get the PDF.  But the point of the game is not that process, it's playing the fucking game.

QuoteChargen is not the sole purpose of the game... but it's an important element

No, it's not.  I don't even remember most chargens.  It's usually more individual and less social in nature, it usually involves intricate choices being made mostly in a vacuum which turn out to be not so important later, and it's often a lot of math and checking things to make sure things were done right.  It's prep for the game, not the game itself.  It's not an important aspect of the game.  It's not role playing, it's not social, it's not solving riddles or getting through a social situation or being clever or any of the important aspects of this game.  When I think role playing game, I do not think calculating my fucking armor class up or character height and weight while everyone else around me is (fairly quietly usually) doing the same.  That's not a strength of RPGs, it's not what makes RPGs important, it's none of the important elements of the game.

Quote from: JasperAK;752750I think if millions can figure out how to make a character in WOW, then 5e should be fine. Maybe those people should be invited into our little corner.

'Hey, instead of playing in the programmers world, how about you play in your own. The only limitations are your own.'

Again, logic has NO place on the internet heathen!!!