Quote from: Simlasa;752681All the more reason, IMO, to stress that in TTRPGs they CAN create their own character... because otherwise why won't they just stick with that other 99%? Most of them have better graphics, are faster, take less time to play. Creating your own character is one of the few things TTRPGs have going for them in the HUGE shitstorm of possible entertainments... and here WOTC is yanking it out of the introductory set.
Chargen is not the sole purpose of the game... but it's an important element that should not be downplayed, ignored, shuffled out of view from the folks your trying to convince to play a game that may demand a few hours a week of their lives.

Because it's a SOCIAL event for many of us. Friends, food, drinks, kids underfoot or "helping" ie. learning. I let the kids roll my D20 and go for example. I have an oversized one that's perfect for children.

They love asking Johanna if they can roll her big maroon D20.

The more I think about this, the more it reminds me of a "quick-starter," which is generally used to get things up and going fast and to give players an overview of the feel of the game.

Except, it's a pretty elaborate quick starter, since it apparently contains more than one adventure and takes characters through more than a single session or two of play. And everything in the game is consistent with various add-ons down the road.

People who like the game can then get the character generation rules, and a bunch of other stuff for free - even if they didn't buy the game - even if they just had a friend DM it for them.

And what I'm hearing here is that "Yes, but dammit, they should still have included chargen rules, because that's a big fun part of the game, and people aren't going to be able to experience that without taking the additional step of visiting the website, and so they'll never know what they are missing.

But it seems to me that if the basic game experience sucks, the best chargen in the world isn't going to save it. On the other hand, if the quick start experience is fun, then its a pretty good bet that one or more people in a gaming group is going to take the next step, especially if the game directs them to it.

Quote from: Marleycat;752682Because it's a SOCIAL event for many of us. Friends, food, drinks, kids underfoot or "helping" ie. learning. I let the kids roll my D20 and go for example.

Boardgames provide all of that... often with lots of attractive components and play times that come in much under the usual duration of an RPG.

Quote from: Saplatt;752684But it seems to me that if the basic game experience sucks, the best chargen in the world isn't going to save it. On the other hand, if the quick start experience is fun, then its a pretty good bet that one or more people in a gaming group is going to take the next step, especially if the game directs them to it.

Possibly, but none of that is a decent excuse for not including a very basic component of the game.
Unless the WOTC's goal is actually to change the nature of the game, maybe? To eventually have it be more like a boardgame with lots of pre-gens and component and bottled gameplay? More stuff for them to sell and convince players that the 'DIY elements of play are 'too hard' or 'weird'. A much more standardized/controllable hobby with that official brand name on it.

Seems like a good way to freak out a new user, by ramming chargen down their throats.

http://www.catthulhu.com/rant-why-people-dont-play-rpgs/

Quote from: Mistwell;752675So all those convention games I played where I grabbed a pre-gen and we just started playing, I had simply skipped the entire purpose of the game?

OK dumbass, tell us all how convention gaming is exactly like the format of home or club games. Tell us how organized play events allow the same freedoms as home or club games.

Quote from: Mistwell;752675Do you fuckers even listed to the bullshit you're spewing?

For want of a nail, the White Knight has fallen off his horse.

Quote from: Mistwell;75267599% of games people play, they are not creating the character.  They're either using the same character they've used for a while. or using a pregen.  Character creation is usually one session a campaign, maybe a few if your character dies.  Why are you guys pretending that session is the "purpose" of the game?

Fucking onetrueway bastards.

Pssst, dumbass! I could either eat at McDonalds or grill up a cheeseburger myself. The cheeseburger I grill for myself tastes better.

Not to mention the fact that those games in a campaign you are talking about would not be possible without a character having been created to play in them.

Quote from: jeff37923;752689OK dumbass, tell us all how convention gaming is exactly like the format of home or club games. Tell us how organized play events allow the same freedoms as home or club games.




For want of a nail, the White Knight has fallen off his horse.



Pssst, dumbass! I could either eat at McDonalds or grill up a cheeseburger myself. The cheeseburger I grill for myself tastes better.

Not to mention the fact that those games in a campaign you are talking about would not be possible without a character having been created to play in them.

Ok, none of this really answers the question posed.  How does Johny, coming late to a game and using a pregen, defeat the purpose of the game.  That is what you said.  No one has said that you couldn't get more enjoyment making a PC yourself.  But you said anyone using a pregen defeats the purpose.  I'd appreciate it if you could answer that.

*Edit*  Because your post seems to strongly imply that the purpose of the game is to create your own characters.  You know do does think char gen is the purpose of the game?  Denners.  Is that the side you want to align with?

Quote from: Simlasa;752686Boardgames provide all of that... often with lots of attractive components and play times that come in much under the usual duration of an RPG.

Possibly, but none of that is a decent excuse for not including a very basic component of the game.
Unless the WOTC's goal is actually to change the nature of the game, maybe? To eventually have it be more like a boardgame with lots of pre-gens and component and bottled gameplay? More stuff for them to sell and convince players that the 'DIY elements of play are 'too hard' or 'weird'. A much more standardized/controllable hobby with that official brand name on it.

No, but we prefer RPGs and I among others in my circle run different games entirely. For example I GM Mage the Awakening. Again it's a social event for us like going to the bar or dancing.

Quote from: JasperAK;752660That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

no I disagree, it is something else an actual introduction to RPGs.

the set covers levels 1-5 we are assuming that it has a sample adventure and some DM guidelines. So you could play multiple games with this set. Could you use it as the only game you buy and play it for years, probably not, but it isn't that is it.

This is a game you can buy and play with your family or in a group of non-roleplayers for as long as you like but if you like the idea of RPGs and want to expand the game then there is free content.

Imagine Heroquest (the boardgame to clarify) had a whole load of free downloadable content. A charcter gen system, rules on creating new DM content, new monsters etc etc . That game would have brought a load of new folks to RPGs. It wouldn't mean that the base game was a pay to preview.

Quote from: dragoner;752687Seems like a good way to freak out a new user, by ramming chargen down their throats.

http://www.catthulhu.com/rant-why-people-dont-play-rpgs/

That link is a call for lighter gaming and fewer asshat roleplayers... not doing away with chargen. It also complains about how boring combat is, should the 'starter' leave out combat as well?
Chargen doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, as it is depicted in that tale. Unless that's how you like your games... but I'm not showing up for that.

Quote from: Simlasa;752696That link is a call for lighter gaming and fewer asshat roleplayers... not doing away with chargen.
Chargen doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, as it is depicted in that tale.

Who is talking about doing away with chargen? If keeping it out of the starter box, keeps the needle-dicks at bay, it's a good thing, imo. But there is an easily findable, pdf? That makes me happy, esp if I want to play.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752691Ok, none of this really answers the question posed.  How does Johny, coming late to a game and using a pregen, defeat the purpose of the game.  That is what you said.  I'd appreciate it if you could answer that.

Sure.

I play role-playing games so that a character created by me, can adventure. If I wanted to play someone else's creation to adventure, then I might as well go play a computer game (and not bother the group because I couldn't be assed to make it on time).

A large part of the attraction of role-playing games is the ability to create and customize your interface with the game - the Player Character. There is no guarantee that the pre-gens don't all suck or fit the style of play that you want to use. Creating your own Player Character means that you have the oppurtunity to craft the best interface you possibly can.

Participating in a role-playing game by using a pre-gen to me is like having an artificial constraint placed on me. I understand the need in convention games because of the accepted time constraints, but it is usually not the preferred method of playing. You can choose the best shoe that fits, or you can try on random ones that in a pile and hope for a fit that is "good enough".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;752691*Edit*  Because your post seems to strongly imply that the purpose of the game is to create your own characters.  You know do does think char gen is the purpose of the game?  Denners.  Is that the side you want to align with?

Holy fuck is there an excluded middle to this arguement of yours.

Quote from: Simlasa;752696That link is a call for lighter gaming and fewer asshat roleplayers... not doing away with chargen. It also complains about how boring combat is, should the 'starter' leave out combat as well?
Chargen doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, as it is depicted in that tale. Unless that's how you like your games... but I'm not showing up for that.

How do you accomplish that?

1. Lighter rules
2. DM control
3. Less emphasis on white room balance
4. Less options in the baseline iteration of the game

The KISS principal (keep it simple stupid).

Quote from: jibbajibba;752695no I disagree, it is something else an actual introduction to RPGs.

A lot of videogames have free, playable demos that can be downloaded. Why not put the whole starter box online then?
Does charging money for the physical object set up expectations that might not meet with reality, regardless of what WOTC's marketing folks are telling it?

Quote from: jeff37923;752699Holy fuck is there an excluded middle to this arguement of yours.

I love it how now having two paragraphs explaining how to roll ability scores, choose a race and a class for yourself, along with a couple of lines explaining the basics for each now just means you are a filthy charop denner who can't live without options. So now, it's either (A) play with the pregens WotC gives you already, or (B) you must be a denner.

That is awesome. *golf clap*