After clarification that there will be a free .pdf, I am back at wait-and-see mode. It still makes Mearls a shit stirring fool for bungling all this by tweeting -- and he, and the rest of the dept., should have their twitter accounts frozen until the release mere months from now. Silence would have been far better.

I feel it is needless risk to rely on WotC web design presence to get this right and on time, especially in the face of 4e's release, as shit does happen. Steps separated from each other are more points for failure, either by manufacturer, seller, or user. There is a reason for the preference of "One and Done" products on the market.

Quote from: Marleycat;752648Not for BASIC characters. No backgrounds no feats.

Leaving aside the ability to distribute the standard array to attributes, a number of class abilities have mechanical options in them (Bardic Performance, Divine Domain, Fighting Style etc).

Quote from: Skywalker;752650Leaving aside the ability to distribute the standard array to attributes, a number of class abilities have mechanical options in them (Bardic Performance, Divine Domain, Fighting Style etc).

I give you that. Question is was that a fair array?

Quote from: Marleycat;752652I give you that. Question is was that a fair array?

FWIW I don't think the level of optimisation in 5e is enough to justify the exclusion of character generation in the Starter Set. But its there at some level.

It isn't for most children over 10.Again it's not the parents that have the Galaxy 3/4/5 it's the children and teenagers. Online components are expected not feared by them. And not needed by anybody that actually plays or runs any edition of Dnd.

All depends on what this boxed set is supposed to be.
If its a self contained starter set for people that want to take on the whole game or even if its a complete rpg that covers a lower number of levels with fewer options then it  should have chargen.

However, if its a beginners set that introduces new players to rpgs for the first time then chargen is not needed because the idea of a beginners box is you open it at xmas and within 15 minutes the whole family is playing.
Even the neigh sayers have to agree that you can roleplay with a  pre-generated character and that for a first time ever player with no one to guide them a pre-gen is fairly good idea.

So if you take the idea that this is not a traditional starter set but is something else and you combine it with the idea that the base rules for the system are going to be free to download, so in effect your starter set is a free download not this boxed beginners set, then there is less of an issue.

Quote from: jibbajibba;752658/snip

So if you take the idea that this is not a traditional starter set but is something else and you combine it with the idea that the base rules for the system are going to be free to download, so in effect your starter set is a free download not this boxed beginners set, then there is less of an issue.

That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

Not entirely, but it cuts out a big chunk of the open-ended nature of TTRPGs that set them off from CRPGs and boardgames.

Quote from: jeff37923;752664You know, these are role-playing games. If you cannot create a character for yourself to role-play, but must use someone else's pre-gen, that kinda defeats the purpose of playing the game.

So all those convention games I played where I grabbed a pre-gen and we just started playing, I had simply skipped the entire purpose of the game?

Do you fuckers even listed to the bullshit you're spewing?

99% of games people play, they are not creating the character.  They're either using the same character they've used for a while. or using a pregen.  Character creation is usually one session a campaign, maybe a few if your character dies.  Why are you guys pretending that session is the "purpose" of the game?

Fucking onetrueway bastards.

Quote from: Haffrung;752614The problem with 'why not just include it' is that's a bad way to design a document for beginners. I know - I make a living writing technical and training documentation. A lot of the documents I write are for new users. In the industry, they're called "Quick Starts" or "Getting Started" docs. The cardinal rule of a quick start is to include only content that is absolutely essential. It's not the place for options, extras, or even standard workflows that are not absolutely essential to getting started using the product. For all other instruction and workflows, a Quick Start references the main user documentation. In the case of 5E, that's the online character generation PDF and the PHB.

Quote from: JasperAK;752660That just makes the 'Starter Set' a pay-for-preview, and unless WOTC has some genius marketing plan, newbs may never get to their website to get the ACTUAL beginner set.

At 12.99? Bullshit. Try again.

The purpose of a role-playing game is to take on the role of a character in a game world.  That's it.  Anyone else who tries to convince you otherwise doesn't have a clue as to what those words actually mean.  Sometimes that means creating your own character.  Sometimes it means not.

I mean, really now.  Am I to expect that if Johny comes late to a session and we say, "Here Johny, you don't need to spend time creating a PC, just choose between the cleric, fighter, or thief" then that means everyone else at the table is playing the game but Johny isn't?


Also, I think it's worth repeating that the STARTER set isn't geared towards anyone here.  It's geared towards people who are learning to play RPGs, and can jump right in and play with as minimal prep time as needed.  I think that's a pretty relevant thing.

Quote from: Simlasa;752669Not entirely, but it cuts out a big chunk of the open-ended nature of TTRPGs that set them off from CRPGs and boardgames.

Yes. Completely.

In the other thread I had started on about CRPGs like Pool of Radiance, Eye of the Beholder, Might & Magic, and The Bard's Tale. All had pre-gens. I would argue that everyone who has had experience with them just gave the pre-gens' items and gold to their own characters before deleting them to make more room for their own creations.

And as for boardgames, who's going to argue they could roleplay in Monopoly this time? You know, my old chums still talk about how one night playing HeroQuest the Elf did something cool, or something. /sarcasm

Now I am not against pre-gens. I understand that using them can get newbs right into the game. Fuck Mentzer started with a pre-gen. But new players aren't going to have as great a connection with them as they would characters they create themselves. So what I have a problem with is asking these potential new hobbyists to jump through hoops to get to the point where they can use their own imaginations. And tell stories about their own characters.

Quote from: Mistwell;752675So all those convention games I played where I grabbed a pre-gen and we just started playing, I had simply skipped the entire purpose of the game?

Do you fuckers even listed to the bullshit you're spewing?

99% of games people play, they are not creating the character.  They're either using the same character they've used for a while. or using a pregen.  Character creation is usually one session a campaign, maybe a few if your character dies.  Why are you guys pretending that session is the "purpose" of the game?

Fucking onetrueway bastards.

When the hell you get sane? I like it. Seriously I use pregens or mostly make my DM create my character since I hate character generation and roll for shit and JUST WANT TO PLAY between herding the cats (children).

Quote from: Mistwell;75267599% of games people play, they are not creating the character.

All the more reason, IMO, to stress that in TTRPGs they CAN create their own character... because otherwise why won't they just stick with that other 99%? Most of them have better graphics, are faster, take less time to play. Creating/customizing (NOT optimizing) your own character is one of the few things TTRPGs have going for them in the HUGE shitstorm of possible entertainments... and here WOTC is yanking it out of the introductory set.
Chargen is not the sole purpose of the game... but it's an important element that should not be downplayed, ignored, shuffled out of view from the folks you're trying to convince to play a game that may demand a few hours out of their busy lives.