Quote from: David Johansen;750810Put me in the "no-character generation in the starter means I won't buy a single product" camp.  It's possible I'd bring it in for the store if people want it, but I'll tell them how much more Pathfinder respects them and puts out a far better product first.

Pathfinder, which has "no-character generation in the starter"?

Quite the double-standard you have going there, particularly when you don't even yet know what WoTC will actually be providing.  You've decided in your mind that D&D will provide something with the exact same parameters as Pathfinder, and from that concluded that you will never ever recommend D&D but Pathfinder is to be respected? Quite the bias.

Quote from: Skywalker;750802The fact that their main competitor for D&D has set a benchmark for what the Starter Set should be (even though Pathfinder also has an OGL document that allows for full character creation) just makes this all the more sad.

The D&D starter set will in pretty well every respect end up being a better deal than the pathfinder set.

You know what would be hilarious?  If there is some form of char-gen in the starter set (possibly with only a sub-set of classes), but the Pundit can't come out and say so because it falls under the NDA.

Quote from: RPGPundit;750946Pathfinder, which has "no-character generation in the starter"?

Pathfinder Beginner Box has full character generation & advancement rules - 4 classes, 3 races, and 5 levels. You should really take a look at it.

Quote from: dar;750926Whatever else there is, the starter set is a glorified add without chargen. Whatever this secret is can it be part of a toys for tots donation with that add 'starter set' or instead of it? Cause otherwise it doesn't much change the fact that it's cripple ware.

Yeah, Starter Box for Toy donations is officially dead. Giving a family in need something that requires 'net access, a.k.a. at best an additional trip to the library for free 'net access to fully use, is about as kind as giving something that needs 6 C batteries to even turn on. Or a booster of a CCG, instead of a playable starter deck. Or a dollhouse accessory without the star doll of the line. It's just a cruel tease.

Second, parents who'd want to spend family time with their kids, or just get them off the fucking phone for once and interact with meat space, this is total fail. Hey, want your kids to play in Imagination Land and interact with people Face to Face? Well, first have them bust out their smart phone and go to www-.defeatedmybiggestsellingpoint.-com, bring out your crippleware box you just realized is naught but a fucking paid advertisement, and there you go!

I am stunned. It is like a profound display of sheer will to search for such sucking defeat. Way to miss the point of a product.

+1 Maybe some Hasbro marketing support has been lent to WotC.

Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.

The box set includes pre-made characters. You will (as the "teacher" of the game) have the ability via some PDF or online tool to make more. You can pre-gen plenty of options for new players to try out.  Most of the new players I have introduced to the hobby in the last 5 years have all asked for either a) a pre-gen or b) for me to make the character with them, translating their questions onto a character sheet (pre-gen by proxy?).

This approach allows newbies to kick the tires on the game, getting knee-deep into the playing parts before having to decide what character options they want. I think this will encourage newbies to try various options as well. People don't invest as much into pre-gens, so the focus will naturally steer towards learning the game and the various options (IMHO).

The Box Set is not targeting the grognard market. It's targeting new players. If you are a grognard the $20 buy-in will simply be a preview for YOU (well, US really...). Otherwise, it's a savvy move to making the game more accessible.

The full rules will be out before year's end. Can you make level 5 in two months? That doesn't seem likely, but in SEPT you can stop kicking around the box set and start your new campaign with FULL char gen. Seems reasonable to me.

I wasn't convinced that WOTC could revitalize D&D or market/produce the game in a manner that would continue the brand in a meaningful manner. This gives me some hope actually. I'm especially encouraged by the desire to take the right amount of time to release the books. As a QA person, I appreciate a focus on quality.

Quote from: RPGPundit;750947The D&D starter set will in pretty well every respect end up being a better deal than the pathfinder set.

So, it will contain character creation in the books in the Box Set, as I would consider that to be a requirement to be better in every respect? OK, now I am confused, as Mearls and yourself have said it didn't. :confused:

Quote from: RPGPundit;750947Quite the bias.

Quote from: RPGPundit;750751More importantly, as Mearls recently stated in his twitter account, you will NOT need to buy all of the D&D "core" books to play OR RUN the game.  And unless I've been massively lied to, this is not a play on words or a trick; it is exactly what it says it is.

Short of OD&D and the BXetc series None of D&D games have needed everyone to buy all the books. The DM needed the DMG and MM, the players needed the PHB.

So yeah. That could be read as trick wording or empty promise if one isnt aware that this is how D&D has been for a good while now. Hopefully this also means that they arent leaving out classes or races for later books.

Seems ok so far really if they dont royally botch something at the 11th hour.

Quote from: Omega;750954Short of OD&D and the BXetc series None of D&D games have needed everyone to buy all the books. The DM needed the DMG and MM, the players needed the PHB.

That's the thing. Nothing that is being said here is new. It all could be said of 3e and 4e, and it seems to have led to the Starter Set suffering the exact same flaw as they did in those editions.

Until we hear something new, how can you expect expectations to differ.

Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies.

I believe its a bad move. They could have had the four basic classes packed in AND pregens. Especially since pregen characters take up what? two pages max to list say four characters?

You STILL need the rules for stats and how the classes work so whats left out is about a paragraph on how to roll up a character and what it does?

Otherwise how is this starter supposed to work if the classes arent explained?

This is going to be interesting and possibly not in the best of ways.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;750836I'm all for having a Box set aimed at DMs; but not having one aimed at players, to bring new players into the hobby is unconscionably stupid...

The best way to bring new players into the hobby is (and always has been) to turn one of their friends into a DM. Players do not and have never needed to buy a single product to participate.

Quote from: David Johansen;750886Yes and nobody's opposed to free apps and software or even purchased or subscribed ones.

But the core entry point should include character creation.  Because the entry point should be a complete game not a crippled preview.  D&D is the game where you create your own character and explore fantastic worlds.

What if the core entry point includes a link to the basic-level character generation document and says "use this to make your own characters"? Crippled or not crippled?

Quote from: Skywalker;750838From what everyone is saying (Mearls, Pundit etc), we will be getting character creation by way of a separate free PDF or online character generator, which is exactly what we got under 3e and 4e. Trying to distinguish this release from them is simply obvious bias.

If that was all there was to it, I would be less impressed with the plan.

So, Mearls is saying there's a tier of product somewhere between the starter set and the PHB/MM/DMG we aren't aware of yet.

Assuming that this isn't some sort of online thingamajig (if it is, I'm slightly surprised they're being this mysterious about it), what could it be?

My guesses:
- A bigger complete-in-one-set box. $50 gives you levels 1-maximum and character gen rules. Somehow the starter box is written so that it's not made entirely redundant by the big box but at the same time isn't required to use it. Rules presented represent a basic version of the full rules - all optional rules are stripped out, character optimisation is gone (replaced by default builds for each class), maybe some of the less iconic classes and races are missing.

- An "Expert" box covering levels 6-10 and including character gen.

- A magazine. Each issue contains an adventure, plus the basic character gen rules (with some tweaks each time based on the theme of the adventure - so, for instance, each issue would give you the basic cleric/thief/fighter/mage, whilst if you had a foresty adventure in an issue you'd also get the ranger and druid class).

- A $5 player booklet which includes the player rules from the starter set, plus character gen, plus dice.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;750888Seriously, am I that old "fogey" that I'm out of my mind for wanting some time with family or friends without needing to down load some crap?

Well, all the current subject aside, yes.  You are.

For me, half my gaming materials are now on PDF, not to mention most of my campaign notes are on .txt files (which in and of itself probably makes me old fashioned!), and for DCC I have come to love the amazing Crawler app (thus far, the only gaming-related app I use).