Quote from: Shipyard Locked;750873My experience with new players is similar.

The advantage of the approach in the Pathfinder BB where you have pre-gens and character creation is you get to cater to both, and not rely on everyone having the same preferences. Even the D&D4e Red Box managed that, barely.

If chargen is somehow free, then they just sold me as a player.  Because that means I don't have to buy ANYTHING.  I can just play.

As a GM I have negative interest in D&D, but as a player, I just want to be able to create a character.  The rest is up to whoever gets tricked into buying and running things.

My 11 year old daughter usually likes to create her own characters in D&D instead of playing pre-gens and she's in that sought-after demographic.

So I guess re the box set and character gen.

i) they want to keep the 3 book model for tradition
ii) adding a Player book to the box set that covers character gen adds $10 to the cost
iii) every player might buy a player book the rest of the box set is for the DM
iv) if you want characters from the box set to be compatible with the whole game does that mean you strip out options to keep it short?
v) they may well be a free to market electronic player "book"

Now I would probably have included the player book in the box set and sold for $29:99. Make it a 50 page book with character generation and some discussion of options and stuff, 8 races 8 classes (page each), backgrounds (4 pages), Spells (8 pages), combat (2 pages), exploration (2 pages), equipment (2 pages),  and a section on character and roleplaying (4 pages) and other fluff (the rest) . I would also have made this availble on its own for $9:99 and included the bulk of it and a free to market phone app. But I would also be targetting the starter set at 9 year olds who prolly don't have their own phones.  

If you want to bring the price point under 20 so it becomes a casual buy for a lot of folks then I can see you might not include it.

Quote from: Brander;750875If chargen is somehow free, then they just sold me as a player.  Because that means I don't have to buy ANYTHING.  I can just play.

So, were you sold on D&D3e and Pathfinder for the same reason?

For months I have been firmly in the wait-and-see category. Twenty-four hours ago I was in the I-want-this-now category. This morning I put the starter box on my amazon wish list.

And now I just want to shoot myself for getting my hopes up that there was a Intro box that I could offer potential new players: 'Here is a sheet of paper, roll some dice, pick a class (or race and class), buy some equipment, and let's  fucking play the game.'

Fuck this shit, I'm tired of getting my chain yanked. I just want WOTC to do something right for a change. Seriously. Fuck.

Footnote: I love the Pathfinder Basic Box set, but I'll be damned if I ever DM 3e/Pathfinder again.

EDIT: And I'm getting tired of this cryptic bullshit coming out of Mearls' mouth. I think I should take a few days.

Quote from: Skywalker;750800IMO the move makes it clear that WotC's intended utility of the starter set is a "pay to preview" rather than a set to get new players into the game.

Not happening without Chargen. 96 pages and no room for Chargen? ...really? ...REALLY?

Chargen takes just 16 pages of the Holmes Bluebook, and that includes spells!!!

5e went from try, ....to not try, in one day. Chargen online doesn't work for me.

nope.


...nope.

...nope ...nope ...nope *


* If they left out Chargen out of the starter set, what did they skip out on with the full overpriced game?

Well, the first impression is everything.

Quote from: jibbajibba;750871when I was struggling with trying to build a city in Neverwinter Nights I was longing for an app that let me generate a base city through : Scan in this map: Generate City: Skin with Gothic Style. Or even better - Generate Random City XXX squares by YYY: Skin with Gothic Style:  then let me go in and tweak the outcome.  

Building this... right now ...looks a bit like this at the moment. Still have to workup some more of the city merchants...


Stede on The Beach  – 44 Blocks
Fort Stede
Home to the garrison of Stede.  Four Towers, reinforced stone walls, and a three story stone Keep.  On the first story is administrative offices, the smithy, and the armory... The second story contains the jail and kitchens. The third story contains quarters for some officers, and some of troops permanently assigned to this castle. Additional soldiers stationed here, as well as soldiers with families, are billeted in the town itself. The Keep contains the captains quarters, quarters for three additional officers as well as a barracks for forty soldiers. Shelters can be erected in the courtyard so that the full complement of troops (200) as well as 100 citizens can be sheltered and protected inside the walls.

Wall Thickness: 20' Wall Height: 50' The top of the wall contains a spikes. There are also collapsible pits located every 20 feet or so in front of the walls, as well as along the top of the wall. The pits at the base of the wall open to a 20' drop into a pit of seawater 20 feet deep. The pits along top of the wall drop 20 feet into a spiked trap. Falling into these causes 2d6 falling damage + 3d6 spike damage.

Garrison Size:
180 Regulars The Sun Champions, composed of,
30 Light Foot Regulars, Three HD, no armor, AC 9, armed with half-spear 1d4.
40 Light Foot Regulars, Three HD, leather armor, AC 7, armed with a spear 1d6.
36 Light Foot Regulars, Three HD, leather armor and buckler, AC 6, armed with swords 1d6 and daggers 1d4.
28 Regulars, Four HD,  armed with fauchard - polearm 1d8, wearing hide armor AC 7and carrying a small heater shield -1 AC,
30 Crossbowmen, Four HD, using heavy crossbows 1d10,  and wearing hide armor AC 7,
18 Light Horsemen, Eight HD, armed with Spears 1d6, carrying targe shields -1 AC and wearing breastplates AC 4,
Crest: Golden Sun with rays over a Chevron on a Grey background

and The Stead Lancer Company
18 Heavy Horsemen, 4 HD, armed with Spears 1d6, wearing banded chainmail AC 4.
Crest: Dark Knight with Lance (facing left) mounted on Rampant White Horse on a Grey Field.

Morale: Veterans, +1 on all morale checks

Led by Nick Lersathe, an  Alchemist Lvl 13, Man.
AC 9 HD 9 HP 36 Weapon: +3 Dagger, +1 Quarterstaff. Armor: None
Nick can brew magic potions using alchemy secrets and poisons as well including a highly lethal black lotus brew.

Class Benefits:
+6 Saving throw vs. effects of any potions and brews.
May identify alchemical potions, magic potions, and alchemy ingredients in ten minutes.
May craft Flesh and Clay Golems

Siege Equipment
Fort Stede also has 2 Onagers (2d6 stones +2d6 Fire damage when ignited), and 2 Mangonels (1d6+2d6 fire damage when ignited) on the top of the seaward side of the towers and two Ballistae (1d10+6) on towers overlooking the city streets




Travel and Inns in Stede on the Beach

1. The Copper and Sailor Inn
2. The Daggers,  Inn and Casino
3. The Guard's Circle of Stones Inn
4.  The Baron's Arm Tavern and Inn Single Story
5. The Duchess Arms Pub
6. The Peach Tree and Cask Alehouse, The Prior's Alehouse, and the Queen's Arms Winery
7. The Wolves Alehouse
8.  The Griffin and Salmon Tavern
9.  Red Seagull Alehouse, The Jay Tavern, & the Captain's Harp Tavern
10. Three Suns Inn
11. The Bowmen's Tavern
12. The Black Horse Pub
13.  Stumbling Saloon and Meadery

MarketPlaces in Stede on the Beach

14. Pauper's Open Market

Paper and Writing Supplies Stall
Adacia
Race: Human
Sex: Male
HD:4
Description: Adacia is an unexceptional looking young man of large build. He is completely bald. He is very well dressed. He is holding a large crate of paper, and is stopping some people and asking them if they know Asiya.

Supplies Available
4 Small Bottle Dark Red Ink 1 Gp
1,400 Paper Sheet 4 Sp
2 Small Bottle Dark Green Ink 1 Gp
6 Small Bottle Black Ink 1 Gp
5 Black Paint 1 Gp, 1 Lb
20 Quill 1 Cp
10 Lb Wax (per Lb) 5 Sp, 1 Lb
20 Fine Quill 1 Cp
125 Parchment Sheet 2 Sp
12 Ink, 1 Oz vial 8 Gp



Tinker's Stall
Áerilnal Thaowowiel
Race: Elf
Sex: Male
HD:5
Description: Áerilnal Thaowowiel is a handsome young man of small build. He is completely bald. He is dressed normally for the area. He is walking idly around the merchandise.

Small Repair Job 1d10 Sp
Large Repair Job 1d6 Gp + cost of materials
Price Per Day 3 Sp

Spell Components Stall
Soki
Race: Gnome
Sex: Female
HD:4
Description: Soki is an unexceptional looking middle aged woman of large build. She has gray hair. She is dressed normally for the area. This happens to include European ring mail armor AC 7, and a colorful scarf
as well as darts 1d4. She is stopping some people and asking them if they know Ocrurovus.

Spell Components Available
Spell ----- Spell Component or Spell Focus ----- Cost ----- Weight in Lb ----- Weight in oz
Transmute Mud to Rock, Vial of Water,1 Gp,.25 lb,4 Oz, only a few drops needed
Suggestion, Snakes Tongue,1 Gp, neg,0.1 oz
Cure Serious Wounds, Adder's Tongue,10 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Desecrate, Vial of Unholy Water,25 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Mount, A bit of Horse Hair,2 Cp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Find The Path Bones x8,10 Gp,0.5 lb,8 oz
Cure Critical Wounds, Burdock Roots,5 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Cure Serious Wounds, Lemon Balm Jar,5 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Color Spray, Red Sand Vial,1 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Disintegrate, Lodestone,10 Gp,1 lb,16 oz
Lightning Bolt, Bit of Fur,1 Cp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Greater Planar Binding, Vial of enchanted Air,100 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Resistance, A miniature Cloak,15 Cp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Polymorph Other, Empty Cocoon,1 Sp, neg,0.1 oz
Horrid Wilting, A Sponge,1 Gp,0.125 lb,2 oz
Sealing Wax 1 Gp, 1 Lb
Locate Object Forked Twig,1 Cp,0.5 lb,8 oz
Fear, White Feather,1 Cp, neg,0.1 oz
Heal, Lemon Balm Jar,5 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Clone Special Laboratory Equipment,500 Gp,10 lb,160 oz
Magic Jar Pink Pearl,100 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Transmute Mud to Rock, Vial of Water,1 Gp,.25 lb,4 Oz, only a few drops needed
Binding, Vellum Depiction,10 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Magic Jar Coral gemstone,100 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Symbol, Powdered Diamond,"5,000 Gp",0.0625 lb,1 oz




Hot Boiled Seafood Stall
Cregre
Race: Halfling
Sex: Female
HD:8
Description: Cregre is an attractive adult woman of small build. She has unkempt brown hair. She is dressed normally for the area. She is standing looking at you.

Menu
Fish Chowder, 5 Sp a bowl
Dried Salted Octopus, 3 Gp per lb
Rye Bread, 3 Gp per lb

Fish and Biscuits Platter 1 Gp
Large Crab, 5 Gp
Hake, 5 Gp per lb
Swordfish, 2 gp per lb
Seafood Banquet 25 Gp

Hot Coffee, 3 Cp per cup
Misium Ale, 8 Gp per gallon
Misium Ale, 2 Gp per Pint
Misium Ale, 56 Gp per Pony Keg



...and so on... all randomly generated using inspiration pad pro.

Quote from: jibbajibba;750871You miss the point.
The point is that give kids an open resource they will fill it with their own imagination.

Yes and nobody's opposed to free apps and software or even purchased or subscribed ones.

But the core entry point should include character creation.  Because the entry point should be a complete game not a crippled preview.  D&D is the game where you create your own character and explore fantastic worlds.

Quote from: jibbajibba;750872But surely it will be on your phone.
The D&D character generator app is an obvious freee phone app.
You roll up your character on the bus on the way to the game.

Lets be honest you then spend a good chunk of your time just creating charcters dipping into the art archive that anyone can upload their own pictures to to fine a cool image and uploading your own artwork, photos of yourself dressed like an elf etc etc .

Well lets just say that if I were in charge of D&D there would be a character creator free iphone/android app.

I hope they come out with the greatest phone app ever for you.

House rule #1: no phones at the table. Seriously the most disruption ever at a gaming table.

Seriously, am I that old "fogey" that I'm out of my mind for wanting some time with family or friends without needing to down load some crap?

Quote from: GameDaddy;750883Not happening without Chargen. 96 pages and no room for Chargen? ...really? ...REALLY?

D&D5e is closer to D&D3e than Holmes, so that's not really the basis for comparison (and being turned off by a lack of character creation in the Starter Set is probably a fortunate thing if you are wanting a D&D Holmes from 5e

Looking at the final playtest document for 5e, you could do PC creation in an extra 64 pages IMO, which I think would be economical if you had a price point of $30.

Quote from: Endless Flight;750876My 11 year old daughter usually likes to create her own characters in D&D instead of playing pre-gens and she's in that sought-after demographic.

...This. My kids are in this demographic too. The Boy likes rolling up Traveller characters. ...just because. Not sure he would part with money for an RPG  game that doesn't include chargen.

The more I think about this, the weirder it seems.

Not cheap, not crippleware (I learned the term from this very thread), not WotC twerking us... Just... Weird.

What RPG doesn't start with chargen rules?  That's sort of one of the biggies. I don't care whether you have an online portal or an app for it. It needs to be In the box or book for it to be a whole RPG.

If I want to play with someone else's character, I'll be the little cardboard black kid from Candyland.

I just finished writing my B/X homage game (sort of a clone, sort of house rules). 38 pages. Chargen made it in.

Why? Because the point of the game is to make your own guy and send him out to do stuff. That's it. That's what you do. You and your table all make up their own guys and go fight the town simpleton or try to steal the princess or light the tavern on fire or hit on the blue dragon. Or whatever.

These are not activities you can do with the cast of the Shady Dragon Inn.  You need your own guys, who play in your own campaign, your own way. I just don't get it.

Well...

All things being equal (Pundit's endorsement included)... I'm going to wait until the DMG lands.

I like some of the things I'm hearing... some, not so much. But the usual rules apply - there's never been an edition of D&D I *didn't* houserule. With the notable exception of 4e, that I pretty much found unplayable for my tastes.

That alone is why I'm gonna wait and see. WotC burned a lot of goodwill with me on 4e. But to me, D&D is like the high-school girlfriend that turned into a whore. I want to remember her back when... when all was good.

Now here she is, years later, in my FB trying to chat me up with her $150 dinner she wants me to take her out "for ol' times sake".

I say thee nay!!