Quote from: Old Geezer;749045Did you know Ochre Jellies love the taste of chalk and will slurp it right off the walls?  True story.

to be fair, 1970s D&D seemed to be an arms race between the DM and players.  Players come up with a way to overcome a challenge, DM invents a monster to nullify that process.  Rinse and repeat

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749051to be fair, 1970s D&D seemed to be an arms race between the DM and players.  Players come up with a way to overcome a challenge, DM invents a monster to nullify that process.  Rinse and repeat

Well, of course... that's what makes the game interesting.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749030(snip)

Started to write a response; changed my tune.  It's not as if you're looking for a discussion in any event: you're looking to Win, and you're apparently willing to cherry pick any statement to suit.

The position that modern military combat patrols do not make maps on route march was basic, simple and accurate; it shouldn't need, or warrant, dozens of posts to debate.

'Hah! you dumb bastard, they use maps, so there!!' isn't -- and shouldn't -- be the point.  'Look, I posted a picture of a military measurement template!!' isn't any sort of answer.  Nor is the absurd implication that every modern soldier is skilled at orienteering, which is not only beside the point, but it's about as accurate as claiming that every modern soldier is a skilled rifleman, just because every recruit has to qualify as a boot.  

So I'll make it easy on you: you can just unilaterally decide what it actually is you're debating, and we can all proclaim that you Won, and you can stick a shiny gold star on your forehead.  Works for you?

Quote from: Ravenswing;749121Started to write a response; changed my tune.  It's not as if you're looking for a discussion in any event: you're looking to Win, and you're apparently willing to cherry pick any statement to suit.

The position that modern military combat patrols do not make maps on route march was basic, simple and accurate; it shouldn't need, or warrant, dozens of posts to debate.

'Hah! you dumb bastard, they use maps, so there!!' isn't -- and shouldn't -- be the point.  'Look, I posted a picture of a military measurement template!!' isn't any sort of answer.  Nor is the absurd implication that every modern soldier is skilled at orienteering, which is not only beside the point, but it's about as accurate as claiming that every modern soldier is a skilled rifleman, just because every recruit has to qualify as a boot.  

So I'll make it easy on you: you can just unilaterally decide what it actually is you're debating, and we can all proclaim that you Won, and you can stick a shiny gold star on your forehead.  Works for you?

So basically, you can't refute the fact that I had addressed your points unlike what you claimed, and that it was you that hadn't been reading mine (thus the irony) and now are throwing a fit about it?

OK, as long as we're on the same page.

Because you see, I assumed you were trying to make an analogy with a D&D adventuring party with the modern military, but it seems now that that analogy makes zero sense based on your response.  I thought you were arguing that PC's shouldn't have to make maps because modern military people don't when on a mission.  Well, the fact that modern military already have them and thus don't need to make them while they are going along is a pretty relevant thing to that argument, don't you?  I imagine if the typical adventuring party already had detailed maps of the area, they wouldn't need to map as they go either.  This isn't some insignificant thing that you can just hand wave away because it hurts your argument.  Not to mention the fact that yes, we in the military do update and make notes to our maps all the freaking time, as we are on mission.

Also, me posting a picture of the protractor is in fact an answer.  In fact, it was a direct answer to your question about who in the military breaks out protractors.  The answer was "everyone", and I showed you the exact tool we use.  If you don't want your questions answered, then don't ask them.  Also, every soldier is skilled at orienteering.  Certainly as much if not more skilled than your typical adventurer, which is sort of important since you were the one making the analogy between the two from the get go.  Since you got caught up in the literal definition of a cartographer, it begs the question: "How many members of a typical D&D adventuring party meet those qualifications?"  Because if the answer is "none" or "hardly any", then why make the comparison at all, with the implication that members of an adventuring party are somehow more skilled at land nav than a modern military person is?

As far as I can tell, you're all over the board, shifting goalposts every time your "point" gets refuted.

As an aside- I enjoyed the way Hackmaster 5th did mapping.  Unless the player had the cartographer skill, said player was not allowed to map at all!

Quote from: Omega;748959Or the guide got only so far, couldnt bypass some trap and is now using the PCs as his or her stalking horse to get deeper in finally. And plans to betray and/or rob them once they hit the jackpot.

Or the guide is really the cult leader leading them to their doom. Ia Ia!

Or the guide allready robbed the place and is just milking the adventurers for more coin. Possibly having previously reset the traps so it "looks" dangerous.

etc ad guidium.

Or he goes along and tries to rob and/or kill you when he thinks he can pull it off. For heaven's sake have people actually forgotten the first ten minutes of Raiders of the Lost Ark?

I think some people give up on mapping because they believe their map, based on the DM's descriptions, has to resemble the one the DM is using. As a player I never found it necessary to get the dimensions of each room and corridor right: just a few lines showing what leads where, and anything of interest found. Kinda like this:

Quote from: jibbajibba;748968My previous point remains unanswered why is mapping essential in old school D&D but not in say the exploration of an ancient lost city in CoC or another pulp game? What meme triggers mapping as a key part of the process in one game but not in another?

Personally. I think mapping came about in fantasy RPGs due to the presence of secret doors and secret rooms. About the only way to find them without a lucky detect roll was by noting inconsistencies in the map.

I think the other reason for mapping is a sort of "uncharted territory" frame of mind and the maze-like nature of most fantasy dungeons.

And of course some just like to.

I do believe that mapping does not occur in every instance. As I noted earlier. I do not recall us ever mapping a tower or castle. Nor any ships.

Jannet showed me her personal map of the steam tunnels under UCLA. And I am told locally the Ann Arbor tunnels are even more of a dungeon-like maze. I did a little research and found this.

Spoiler

forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rpgs you were fucked lol

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749492forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rpgs you were fucked lol

Still have my maps of Lamorte and Scara Brae. Mapped alot of the SSI D&D games and Buck Rogers too.

Quote from: Omega;749490Personally. I think mapping came about in fantasy RPGs due to the presence of secret doors and secret rooms. About the only way to find them without a lucky detect roll was by noting inconsistencies in the map.

I think the other reason for mapping is a sort of "uncharted territory" frame of mind and the maze-like nature of most fantasy dungeons.

And of course some just like to.

I do believe that mapping does not occur in every instance. As I noted earlier. I do not recall us ever mapping a tower or castle. Nor any ships.

Again though I have played lots of Pulpy games with lost cities and what not, CoC, Daredevils, SW, etc and here you have secret doors and lost rooms and rooms where you have to stick a big staff with a gem on the top to find out where to find the loist arc etc etc .

Your point round map the rooms to find out where the secret doors are is one of my biggest hangups because that only works with really accurate maps and when you are summing up to 5' increments and the PCs never actually measure anything any maps they produce will be wildly inaccurate (autistic dwarven savants aside).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749492forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rpgs you were fucked lol

I mapped my way through all Fighting Fantasy game books I read.

I actually got the City of Thieves map I made, tweaked and D&Dfied it, and placed it in my D&D RC campaign. Players got there, went to a brothel and had their asses handed to them by a Devil Swine madame.

Quote from: jibbajibba;749505Your point round map the rooms to find out where the secret doors are is one of my biggest hangups because that only works with really accurate maps and when you are summing up to 5' increments and the PCs never actually measure anything any maps they produce will be wildly inaccurate (autistic dwarven savants aside).

10' incriments we went by. And yes, absolutely only works when the place is plotted out on a grid.

No grid. Not as much mapping. Though I've done like elfdart with the basic box-line-box style. Just mapping intersections and branches. And I've mapped CoC locales when it seemed appropriate.

Quote from: The Butcher;749506I mapped my way through all Fighting Fantasy game books I read.

I actually got the City of Thieves map I made, tweaked and D&Dfied it, and placed it in my D&D RC campaign. Players got there, went to a brothel and had their asses handed to them by a Devil Swine madame.

I mapped Hell house because it turned out that the place actually followed a defined pattern once you realized all the directions were perspective.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749492forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rgs you were fucked lol

well unil you realise that most of them only have 3 rooms in the "maze" and that each exit merely links back to the same location. So drop unique but useless items in each room then try each direction til you get to a room that doesn't have the item in then repeat and then the maze ends up at close to 3 or 4 moves to negotiate.
Once you get it down you just memorise it.
I remember memorising the first 200 moves or so to The Hobbit on my spectrum. becuase you couldn't save it and our house ran of a 50p electric meter it meant that I woudl log in and as quickly as possible type in "N,W,S, take torch, N, search bag ,N, etc etc so I could get to the new bit.
It retrospect a bit dull and probably why I never completed it.