my live games, they map.
and make mistakes.

online, many of the games like roll20 have the built in mapping, but that is the only time my players don't map.

Quote from: estar;748786Even in the early campaigns there were players who were known to have the ability to navigate dungeon with their memory alone.

There are a lot of video games that test similar skills - something like Zelda or Metroid would be popular early (Video game) examples, but I'm sure there are earlier. Map knowledge is also a strong component in any form of competitive shooter, in a slightly different form.

As the GM, I draw it on my whiteboard as they see it.  Dealing with the inevitable misunderstandings between what I said (or think I said) and what was heard is just a waste of time (and it's usually honest).

As a player, I'm not going to do it for the same reasons.  Too many times what the GM says (or thinks they say) and what the players hear have almost nothing to do with anything.  If the point of your adventure is to get me lost, then lost I will be.  If that gets my character killed, then I'll happily roll up another.

As a fight larper, I've done a couple cool ass dungeons (and thick sprawling wilderness areas), and it's largely trivial to find your way in person.  Like others have said, the spatial awareness in person is very different than what a map would show.  Humans (and logically most fantasy humanoids) have tremendously good spatial awareness overall.  It's in fact one of the ways to learn to memorize things, by putting them in a place in an imagined space.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

" Hey guys we really shouldn't be exploring this ruined city that no civilized person has laid eyes on in a thousand years without a map. " :rolleyes:

If you are referencing a map during an operation then the mission obviously isn't to discover what the area is like because you have a MAP!

Hush, you and your "being smart enough to shit unassisted!"

Quote from: estar;748786What has been typical is the explorers will find a local uncivilized and draft him as a scout.

Hee hee hee, good luck.

If the local uncivilized has the guts to go into that damned ruin, he and his mates have already done so.  He obviously survived, so he's one of the good ones.  What he knows about that place is now a professional secret, and he's damned if he's going to tell you.

Or he DOESN'T have the guts, and you're going to get twenty feet in and discover that your "guide" is totally worthless.

Quote from: Old Geezer;748819Hee hee hee, good luck.

If the local uncivilized has the guts to go into that damned ruin, he and his mates have already done so.  He obviously survived, so he's one of the good ones.  What he knows about that place is now a professional secret, and he's damned if he's going to tell you.

Or he DOESN'T have the guts, and you're going to get twenty feet in and discover that your "guide" is totally worthless.

Or the guide got only so far, couldnt bypass some trap and is now using the PCs as his or her stalking horse to get deeper in finally. And plans to betray and/or rob them once they hit the jackpot.

Or the guide is really the cult leader leading them to their doom. Ia Ia!

Or the guide allready robbed the place and is just milking the adventurers for more coin. Possibly having previously reset the traps so it "looks" dangerous.

etc ad guidium.

Quote from: Omega;748959Or the guide got only so far, couldnt bypass some trap and is now using the PCs as his or her stalking horse to get deeper in finally. And plans to betray and/or rob them once they hit the jackpot.

Or the guide is really the cult leader leading them to their doom. Ia Ia!

Or the guide allready robbed the place and is just milking the adventurers for more coin. Possibly having previously reset the traps so it "looks" dangerous.

etc ad guidium.

By the Great Horn Spoon, Jim lad, I like the cut of your Genny!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

And one enormous similarity: it's tactically stupid for a small unit to be doing so in a free fire zone where they can be -- and probably will be -- attacked at any time.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748776Seeing as how your post asked how many of these guys whip out protractors, and my response was a picture of a protractor followed by "everyone", I'd say my response was exactly referencing what you actually wrote.

That would go to the part about you not really reading my posts.  Let's see if I can help you with the key word you either missed or ignored.

QuoteHow many of those special forces teams have a cartographer on the fire missions, whipping out the protractors and French curves?

I'm presuming you don't need help on the definition of "cartographer," except in so far as it doesn't include forward observers, fire controllers or orienteerers.  Next time you claim you "exactly reference" a post, how about you actually exactly reference it?[/COLOR]

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

" Hey guys we really shouldn't be exploring this ruined city that no civilized person has laid eyes on in a thousand years without a map. " :rolleyes:

If you are referencing a map during an operation then the mission obviously isn't to discover what the area is like because you have a MAP!

Which is a fair point. What they ought to do is to carefully map the complex  properly, step by step using measures and equipment. Anything else would possibly endanger a very valuable archeological record. However, D&D characters aren't archeologists they are at best tomb raiders.
My previous point remains unanswered why is mapping essential in old school D&D but not in say the exploration of an ancient lost city in CoC or another pulp game? What meme triggers mapping as a key part of the process in one game but not in another?

Oh and for the guys that think a map really helps in a pursuit... I disagree. If you are running sword in one hand lantern/torch in another you have no time to consult a map its not a tomtom after all.
One of the things I used to love to do when my daughter was 4 or 5 was go into a maze, either at a stately home park type place or down at a local garden centre where they create a maize maze each year and just run through it. Give up on finding your way through caution and run full tilt. Excellent fun chasing your mates through a maze at high speed. Time to check a map? Nope no chance at all.

As estar says if you are actually in a space your spatial awareness is far more persuasive. I for one find first person shooters really confusing but never get lost running round exploring stuff etc. How do you try and map that reality back to the game? Estar's dwarven forge method is great if you have the time patience etc but not for everyone.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748966And one enormous similarity: it's tactically stupid for a small unit to be doing so in a free fire zone where they can be -- and probably will be -- attacked at any time.

Take notes kids. That's right, adventuring is fucking dangerous and only for the foolish who are of stout heart.

In other news, water is still wet, and the sky largely remains blue. Film at 11.

If you don't care about stealth, bring a sledge hammer and take a chunk out of each corner.  I'm a big believer in bringing a few useful tools to the dungeon.

Usually a wood axe, a sledge, a bow saw, and a wrecking bar.

Too heavy?  That's what henchmen are for!

Quote from: David Johansen;749025If you don't care about stealth, bring a sledge hammer and take a chunk out of each corner.  I'm a big believer in bringing a few useful tools to the dungeon.

Usually a wood axe, a sledge, a bow saw, and a wrecking bar.

Too heavy?  That's what henchmen are for!

A common piece of equipment all of my PCs have is chalk.  But the problem is we have a generation of gamers (mostly 4anbois) who can't think outside of the box and literally throw a fit if a game includes chalk in an equipment list.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748966That would go to the part about you not really reading my posts.  Let's see if I can help you with the key word you either missed or ignored.



I'm presuming you don't need help on the definition of "cartographer," except in so far as it doesn't include forward observers, fire controllers or orienteerers.  Next time you claim you "exactly reference" a post, how about you actually exactly reference it?

:rotfl: the irony about not reading posts.

I didn't think you literally meant a professional cartographer, because how many adventuring parties have a PC who is a professional cartographer?  The answer is probably "not many", so therefore your analogy falls apart from the get go.  I assumed you were talking about having someone part of the group who was somewhat skilled in mapreading/making.

And here is where the irony of you accusing me of not reading posts comes in:

As I said, the answer to that in a modern military group is EVERYONE.  I literally even spelled out the training that every basic soldier goes through, let alone someone who is special forces.

At this point I have to conclude that you have no clue how a modern military squad works, or what training they have.  And stop accusing others or not reading posts when clearly you haven't been.  Hell, I even used pictures for the reading impaired.

My players use to and I had one player who insisted he would map out a dungeon every time they entered one because of always getting lost or turned around in one but since then, not really anymore, they always fly by the seat of their pants now.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749028A common piece of equipment all of my PCs have is chalk.  But the problem is we have a generation of gamers (mostly 4anbois) who can't think outside of the box and literally throw a fit if a game includes chalk in an equipment list.

Did you know Ochre Jellies love the taste of chalk and will slurp it right off the walls?  True story.