Quote from: Sacrosanct;741600Yes, most "richochets" people talk about are actually called splatter.  I've never been hit by a true richochet, but I have been hit with splatter a few times.  And splatter is largely harmless, resulting in minor injury unless you happen to get it in your eye or something.  Still hurts and can cause injury, but it's nothing like getting hit with an actual bullet.

In order for true richochets to happen, conditions have to be pretty specific.

Okay, glad we've got that settled. Carry on.

Quote from: Dodger;741597Okay, I would describe this as shrapnel or fragmentation. To my mind, a ricochet is when an intact round deflects off something and hits an unintended target with enough impact to cause damage.

Rather rare, the bullet would have to hit with the right combination of energy and angle to deflect without breaking into too small of parts while maintaining enough energy to remain dangerous. There's a window there, but not much of one for common ammo. It's a wider one for things like AP or solids.

The most common cause of bullet defection is actually successful penetration where the bullet upon hitting something either pushes it aside or plows through easily. Things like glass, brush, tree branches, etc. The effect varies widely depending upon the exact specific case with the deflection being so minor as to not matter, or rather impressive.

Quote from: gleichman;741593But to answer the question in the original OP- do you want a realistic answer or a game answer? They are two different things, from a game design PoV such a mechanic is intended to discourage players from taking certain shots and thus the chance is unrealistically high and simple.

A realistic answer would discourage the serious role-player, but would be too low to discourage others (the risk will be worth it) and be much more complex.

Essentially, i want a game answer that takes the realistic answer into account (possibly to discourage players from using firearms without thinking of what may happen if they miss, if that would be neccesary, and discouraging GMs from handing out firearms too willingly).

Quote from: Catelf;741605Essentially, i want a game answer that takes the realistic answer into account (possibly to discourage players from using firearms without thinking of what may happen if they miss, if that would be neccesary, and discouraging GMs from handing out firearms too willingly).

OK, here's few thoughts for you, two of which I used in my own game and the other I don't but could if I was going for a "bad things happen" campaign. The odds are likely too high but still have a relation to reality.

There are basically three cases that need to be considered.

• Targets in Melee or otherwise in arms length

Often PCs will fire into a melee or even wresting match. The abstraction of the game may make it clear which 'hex' a specific character is in, but that's an abstraction. For this rule, it doesn't matter- only that the targets are 'engaged'.

I make the shooter roll randomly to determine which target he's actually shooting at. Weight the roll towards the correct target. If there's two for example, roll 1d6, on a 1-4 he picks the right one. On a 5-6, not so lucky. Gets more interesting with more foes, for example three combatants: 1-3 the right one, 4-5 closest wrong one, 6 farthest wrong one. So on.

• Victim in line of fire 'on the map'.

Roll an attack for every target in the line of fire or adjacent to it until you've hit something or missed everything. The base strike chance should be low, but still possible. In HERO System it's done with an OCV of 0, it typically ends up being an 8- on 3d6 in most of my games.

All targets should treat the attack as a surprise. Resolve as normal.

• 'Off-Map' and Unknown Victims

Likely even the GM doesn't know where these poor sods are. These are the guys who just happen to be there, but aren't seen or noticed until their luck runs out.

These are the five year old kids at their birthday party who die from stray bullet fired perhaps hundreds of yards away. Sucks to be them. The characters in the firefight may not even be aware of what happened until the cops come looking for them.

Roll after the battle, with a low chance- something like 1% or up it to 2% if people are blazing away with automatic weapons. Double it in population dense errors. If successful(?) roll again for another stray hit- keep rolling until you don't get a hit.

If it comes up, you may want to determine who fired the bullet(s). Given that it could have happened from a over penetration, you can be as fair handed as just rolling with even odds for anyone who fired a weapon. Or if you keep track of what everyone shot- base it upon how many bullets each character sent off compared to the total.

The hit is automatic, just roll damage.

[/LIST]

And as a side note...

It's not the bullet with your name on it that you have to worry about, it's the one "Marked for whom it may concern".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741599Once again missing the forest through the tree, eh gleichman?  So many things wrong about your post.  Where to start..

how about assuming I was talking about range conditions, when I actually was saying the opposite; that in range conditions the chances of hitting a secondary target on accident beyond max effective range are incredibly remote, so when you factor in everything else (like not being on a range), the odds become astronimical.

or how about the fact that you failed to realize that the people who have been killed beyond max effective range were aimed at intentionally, and the OP is clearly talking about hitting someone beyond the target you were aiming at on accident.

or how about I never said it can't ever happen (someone accidentaly suffering damage beyond max effective range), but that the odds are so remote it's not worth bothering about in an RPG.  Now, I will admit I'll fully retract that statement if you can show data that shows the rate of someone accidentally getting shot beyond the maximum effective range of the weapon when the shooter was aiming at another target is anything other than extremely remote.  

I have some figures though.  One of those is that in Vietnam, roughly 50,000 rounds were fired for every person killed.  And most of those rounds were fired intentionally at a target, and not someone who was accidentally killed at beyond effective range.

No, you're totally missing the point and the context of the conversation yet again.  Big surprise.

Actually, Gleichman has a point valid to the situations i'm thinking of that may arise ... i think.
I'll explain:

Consider the player characters see themselves as "good guys", and is armed with automatics and semi-automatics, and decides to stop some kind of perpetrators on a regular populated street during daytime ... by shooting them.

Do note that a LOT of people is within 200 metres, and even more within 400.

... I think you get my point.
Ok, the example is very drastic, but even if ir is somewhat less drastic, the consequenses for the alleged "good guys" could get dire very fast.

Quote from: Catelf;741610Actually, Gleichman has a point valid to the situations i'm thinking of that may arise ... i think.

You are correct.

Here's your shot, you've tried to take out the happy guy with the glasses pushed up on his head. You've missed.

What do you think the chances are of hitting the wrong person at that point?

Side note, if the police hit the wrong target when shooting at a bad guy (who needs to be shot at), the bad guy is in many states is chargeable for any damage that results from a stray police bullet up to and including murder.

Quote from: Catelf;741610Actually, Gleichman has a point valid to the situations i'm thinking of that may arise ... i think.
I'll explain:

Consider the player characters see themselves as "good guys", and is armed with automatics and semi-automatics, and decides to stop some kind of perpetrators on a regular populated street during daytime ... by shooting them.

Do note that a LOT of people is within 200 metres, and even more within 400.

... I think you get my point.
Ok, the example is very drastic, but even if ir is somewhat less drastic, the consequenses for the alleged "good guys" could get dire very fast.

I guess it depends on what you're looking for, and what sort of complexity you want.  I can tell you, as someone who's done a lot of this analysis and playtesting for years, that most people will quickly discard most of those rules once it starts bogging things down.  Gleichman is a very rare exception in that he seems to view rules like money; can't have enough.

I've seen it happen over and over and over again.  You get a set of rules to model the reality you want, and in actual play, it just takes way to damn long.  that's why I suggested to not even bother with collateral damage beyond a weapon's maximum effective range.  however, for victims within range, the chances go up.  That is, even if you're using pistol ammuniton (which also includes weapons like the Uzi, MP5, Tompson--basically any weapon that isn't a pistol but uses the same type of ammo), if you're firing at a target 25 yards away, by the time the bullet travels 100 yards, it will have dropped significantly, and the only way you're going to accidentally hit someone 200 or 300 yards away is if you happened to fire the gun in the air, which isn't very likely if you aimed at someone 25 yards away.  Does that make sense?

The way I would handle it is to look at max effective range of the weapon, and perhaps assign a % based on the # of potential targets in the line of fire to the one you aimed at.  

Example:

Player A is firing at a gang member or whatever in a street 30m away.  His gun (lets say an older MP5) has a maximum effective range of 100m.  He fires at the target and misses.  Behind the gang member within 100m are 4 people.  For round numbers, give a 5% chance for each one.  So anything under a 20% or lower is going to hit someone.

Now, if you want more realism and/or detail, you could say things like for every % or integer that the PC missed, a 5 degree cone is used to tally all potential targets.  So if he missed by 3, a 15 degree cone from the point of firing out to maximum effective range is used, and count all the people in that cone.  however, like I said, the more rules you have to figure out, the more likely they will be ignored.

Quote from: gleichman;741609There are basically three cases that need to be considered.

Thank you, this were closest to understanding what i was looking for thus far

Quote from: gleichman;741613You are correct.

Here's your shot, you've tried to take out the happy guy with the glasses pushed up on his head. You've missed.

What do you think the chances are of hitting the wrong person at that point?

Side note, if the police hit the wrong target when shooting at a bad guy (who needs to be shot at), the bad guy is in many states is chargeable for any damage that results from a stray police bullet up to and including murder.

Ok, this was even more extreme than my example, and thus bound for massive lethality.

On the police .... i live in Europe, police normally dont have that kind of allowance for lethality around here ...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741615I guess it depends on what you're looking for, and what sort of complexity you want.  I can tell you, as someone who's done a lot of this analysis and playtesting for years, that most people will quickly discard most of those rules once it starts bogging things down.  Gleichman is a very rare exception in that he seems to view rules like money; can't have enough.

I've seen it happen over and over and over again.  You get a set of rules to model the reality you want, and in actual play, it just takes way to damn long.  that's why I suggested to not even bother with collateral damage beyond a weapon's maximum effective range.  however, for victims within range, the chances go up.  That is, even if you're using pistol ammuniton (which also includes weapons like the Uzi, MP5, Tompson--basically any weapon that isn't a pistol but uses the same type of ammo), if you're firing at a target 25 yards away, by the time the bullet travels 100 yards, it will have dropped significantly, and the only way you're going to accidentally hit someone 200 or 300 yards away is if you happened to fire the gun in the air, which isn't very likely if you aimed at someone 25 yards away.  Does that make sense?

The way I would handle it is to look at max effective range of the weapon, and perhaps assign a % based on the # of potential targets in the line of fire to the one you aimed at.  

Example:

Player A is firing at a gang member or whatever in a street 30m away.  His gun (lets say an older MP5) has a maximum effective range of 100m.  He fires at the target and misses.  Behind the gang member within 100m are 4 people.  For round numbers, give a 5% chance for each one.  So anything under a 20% or lower is going to hit someone.

Now, if you want more realism and/or detail, you could say things like for every % or integer that the PC missed, a 5 degree cone is used to tally all potential targets.  So if he missed by 3, a 15 degree cone from the point of firing out to maximum effective range is used, and count all the people in that cone.  however, like I said, the more rules you have to figure out, the more likely they will be ignored.

I am, in part, also checking out differing opinons on this matter, so i appreciate both Gleichmans and your answers.

In your case it is the "cumbersome rules gets dropped", as well as the examples you gave that is interesting.

Quote from: Catelf;741616Ok, this was even more extreme than my example, and thus bound for massive lethality.

Yes that was extreme to make a point.

But consider some real world examples...

The JFK Shooting:. Three bullets, one target- three people injured.

The Reagan Shooting: Six bullets, four people hit and the one that hit Reagan was an example rare ricochet.

And here are examples of Police hitting just about everybody but the person they were shooting at.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741615Gleichman is a very rare exception in that he seems to view rules like money; can't have enough.

You don't have faintest clue as to what I need or how I use it, or you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment.

Quote from: Catelf;741625I am, in part, also checking out differing opinons on this matter, so i appreciate both Gleichmans and your answers.

In your case it is the "cumbersome rules gets dropped", as well as the examples you gave that is interesting.

I have literally spent years looking at ballistics tables, effects vs. material struck, tons of stuff.  I'm talking hundreds of pages of info, charts, calculations, etc.

And what inevitabely happens when you have rules that model a lot of this?  If you spend more than a few seconds to resolve your combat attack, most people ignore it.  As a general rule, players don't want to look up charts and do several comparisons for each attack they are doing, depending on what type of weapon used, what type of ammunition, what range, what atmospheric effects, composition of the target, pass through capability, etc.  Most people don't care about the differences between a .308 and a 30.06.  One or two charts at most, and they better be fast and easy to find the information.

Now, I know gleichman has done all of this as well, but he is by far the exception because he loves all this data.  I haven't met a single gamer in actual play that does though.  And judging by the numorous conversations we've had about this same topic in the past, neither does anyone else.

Quote from: gleichman;741627You don't have faintest clue as to what I need or how I use it, or you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment.

Actually I do, based on your own previous posts about this same topic.  So you're either lying now, or lying then.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741629I have literally spent years looking at ballistics tables, effects vs. material struck, tons of stuff.  I'm talking hundreds of pages of info, charts, calculations, etc.

And what inevitabely happens when you have rules that model a lot of this?  If you spend more than a few seconds to resolve your combat attack, most people ignore it.  As a general rule, players don't want to look up charts and do several comparisons for each attack they are doing, depending on what type of weapon used, what type of ammunition, what range, what atmospheric effects, composition of the target, pass through capability, etc.  Most people don't care about the differences between a .308 and a 30.06.  One or two charts at most, and they better be fast and easy to find the information.

Now, I know gleichman has done all of this as well, but he is by far the exception because he loves all this data.  I haven't met a single gamer in actual play that does though.  And judging by the numorous conversations we've had about this same topic in the past, neither does anyone else.

I also strive for simplicity, but the point is to discourage Player Characters from using firearms in public, and if they do, there may well be nasty consequenses.

I often boil the fireams down to Pistol and Karbine, and care not for atmospheric effects nor the difference between calibres if i can avoid it.
Sure, it may not be realistic to ditch it, but then i barely find it important.
However, the risk of accidentally shooting bystanders if you aim for perps in a populated street, is not one i find unimportant.

Quote from: gleichman;741627You don't have faintest clue as to what I need or how I use it, or you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741630Actually I do, based on your own previous posts about this same topic.  So you're either lying now, or lying then.

Sacro, if you think Glei is a troll, then please stop feeding him.
He did have a point, cumbersome rules or not.

Glei, if you find Sacro's comments on you disturbing or false: it is noted, now please stop responding to those comments.