3rik, in a game where climbing a sheer cliff face calls for a Defy Danger roll, there's nothing unusual about the question "what do I do if they have a rope and grapnel?" Common sense says climbing should be easier. You're reading the text, so ignoring the section you called retarded, what should you do as GM using the rules? Same with punching a dragon. Since the damage is based on class, not weapon and is the same whether you're wielding a sword, dagger or a fist, "what happens when I punch a dragon?" Shouldn't be a surprising question. It's a question that gets asked even with that section in the book.

Quote from: sage_again;736557I have no idea who our real audience is, partially because I don't think there's much of defined 'Forgy/"indie"/storygame crowd' these days. My experience is that most people are playing most everything and finding their tastes along the way.

Where will you find people that see it with an us-vs-them mindset that thinks the camps are divided?  A subset of this forum, a subset of story-games.com, a few blogs, a few youtube channels and other tiny pockets of the internet here and there.

The real story is that the average gamer doesn't care so much about identity politics and plays whatever games seem like fun.  It's like religion where the average person in the pews doesn't really care about minor differences between denominations (or even entire religions) and is fine with the idea of it all working out in the end, but the true believer has a need for the sheep to be separated from the goats right now.

Quote from: Noclue;7365743rik, in a game where climbing a sheer cliff face calls for a Defy Danger roll, there's nothing unusual about the question "what do I do if they have a rope and grapnel?" Common sense says climbing should be easier. You're reading the text, so ignoring the section you called retarded, what should you do as GM using the rules? Same with punching a dragon. Since the damage is based on class, not weapon and is the same whether you're wielding a sword, dagger or a fist, "what happens when I punch a dragon?" Shouldn't be a surprising question. It's a question that gets asked even with that section in the book.

I didn't call the quoted text retarded, I called it "some seriously redundant shit". Because it is stating the obvious but especially because of the convoluted pseudo-esoteric way it is worded. "If circumstances - such as the possession of certain pieces of equipment - make a task easier the GM decreases the difficulty" would have sufficed. It was just one example. The game is full of stuff like that. I have to give props to Pundit for actually managing to read the whole thing. I found it way too tedious. It makes me curious to take a quick look inside Apocalypse World, though, to see how much of its DNA made it into Dungeon World.

Quote from: 3rik;736647I didn't call the quoted text retarded, I called it "some seriously redundant shit". Because it is stating the obvious but especially because of the convoluted pseudo-esoteric way it is worded. "If circumstances - such as the possession of certain pieces of equipment - make a task easier the GM decreases the difficulty" would have sufficed. It was just one example. The game is full of stuff like that. I have to give props to Pundit for actually managing to read the whole thing. I found it way too tedious. It makes me curious to take a quick look inside Apocalypse World, though, to see how much of its DNA made it into Dungeon World.

You're right, my quote wasn't accurate. You asked if it was "roleplaying for retards." I don't think that actually changes my point. The problem with your comments on the rules is you don't know the rules. The GM doesn't typically "increase the difficulty" as that term is often understood. Adding a -1 or +1 difficulty modifier is rather rare in DW. Certain moves can give you a +1 to a future roll in select instances, but generally, no, there aren't difficulty modifiers for things like climbing with or without a rope.

Quote from: 3rik;736647"If circumstances - such as the possession of certain pieces of equipment - make a task easier the GM decreases the difficulty" would have sufficed.

Not really, due to how difficulty works in Dungeon World. The DM typically doesn't muck about with dice results for basic moves; rather, difficulty is reflected in the fiction (By blocking characters off from tasks they aren't equipped for, or consuming more / less resources, including time; or by making the consequences for failure more severe or non-existent).

So, a climbing kit (Rope, pitons);
* Lets you scale surfaces that you couldn't without one
* Is probably going to slow your ascent compared to free climbing
* Would probably make climbing some surfaces simple enough to not bother rolling Defy Danger for, you can just do it (...which means you can't fail, unless you want to try SPEED CLIMBING or something)
* Is going to let you leave pitons to assist your party members
* Is probably going to leave more marks in the wall for people to spot
* Will mean that, if you fail a "climbing" roll (Likely Defy Dangerm but it could vary), you're probably just stuck or dangling from your last piton, rather than falling to your death

But it doesn't just give you a +1 Climb Check bonus, because that's boring and meaningless.

Given that it's a game designed from the "say what you want to do" rather than a "say what ability you want to use" mindset, some of this is obvious to us, but it won't be to a 3.xFinder skirmish gamer. So there's stuff that isn't for us. That's okay.

QuoteIt makes me curious to take a quick look inside Apocalypse World, though, to see how much of its DNA made it into Dungeon World.

Honestly, if you're finding Dungeon World a difficult read, Apocalypse World will be even worse. I don't think it's worth the effort personally.

Quote from: Ladybird;736655Honestly, if you're finding Dungeon World a difficult read, Apocalypse World will be even worse. I don't think it's worth the effort personally.

Just to highlight that, here's what Apocalypse World has to say about gear:

QuoteAll of the different character types come
with their own assortment of gear and
other crap, including holdings, gangs, gigs,
followers, crews, workspaces, weapons,
and specialized equipment.

Most individual items of gear or crap get a little list of descriptive
tags, like magnum (3-harm close reload loud) or followers (fortune+2
surplus: 1-barter augury want: judgment savagery). Those tags
work in 3 different ways. Some of them are straightforwardly
mechanical, like 3-harm, fortune+2, surplus and want. Some note
the circumstances under which the thing can be useful, like
close and reload. Some tell you, the MC, things to say when the
character uses the thing, like loud, 1-barter, augury, judgment and
savagery (Page 15)

QuoteWeapons’ and gear’s descriptive tags fall into 3 categories. First,
the plain mechanical; second, constraints on when the characters
can use them; third, cues recommending something for you to
say about them (Page 238)

Quote from: Ladybird;736655Not really, due to how difficulty works in Dungeon World. The DM typically doesn't muck about with dice results for basic moves; rather, difficulty is reflected in the fiction (By blocking characters off from tasks they aren't equipped for, or consuming more / less resources, including time; or by making the consequences for failure more severe or non-existent).

So, a climbing kit (Rope, pitons);
* Lets you scale surfaces that you couldn't without one
* Is probably going to slow your ascent compared to free climbing
* Would probably make climbing some surfaces simple enough to not bother rolling Defy Danger for, you can just do it (...which means you can't fail, unless you want to try SPEED CLIMBING or something)
* Is going to let you leave pitons to assist your party members
* Is probably going to leave more marks in the wall for people to spot
* Will mean that, if you fail a "climbing" roll (Likely Defy Dangerm but it could vary), you're probably just stuck or dangling from your last piton, rather than falling to your death

But it doesn't just give you a +1 Climb Check bonus, because that's boring and meaningless.

It's the same thing, just less wordy. Disallowing the action is like turning the difficulty way up to impossible. Not requiring a roll is the same as making the difficulty negligible.

Quote from: Ladybird;736655Given that it's a game designed from the "say what you want to do" rather than a "say what ability you want to use" mindset, some of this is obvious to us, but it won't be to a 3.xFinder skirmish gamer.

Hence my impression that it was like reading "roleplaying for retards".

Quote from: Ladybird;736655Honestly, if you're finding Dungeon World a difficult read, Apocalypse World will be even worse. I don't think it's worth the effort personally.

Not really difficult, strictly speaking, just tedious, but I get what you mean.

Quote from: Ladybird;736655difficulty is reflected in the fiction

Quote from: 3rik;736662It's the same thing, just less wordy. Disallowing the action is like turning the difficulty way up to impossible. Not requiring a roll is the same as making the difficulty negligible.

What if you want to make it somewhat less difficult, rather than negligible? Like, I don't know, you've got good climbing shoes. Or somewhat more difficult? Maybe a strong breeze is blowing. You look in the book and it says simply, the GM makes it more difficult, without any further explanation. What do I do?

Quote from: 3rik;736662It's the same thing, just less wordy. Disallowing the action is like turning the difficulty way up to impossible. Not requiring a roll is the same as making the difficulty negligible.

It's the range of events in between that are different and interesting, though.

Dungeon World encourages action; if you can do something that requires a move, then your chances of doing it don't change, the consequences for failure do... which means that you're not punished for trying something risky, but also that you don't need to go hunting for mechanical bonuses. If you're mix/maxing your character to be the best climber in the world, you... buy some climbing gear, and develop your upper-body strength (So, advance your Strength and Dex when you level up), which seems pretty reasonable.

QuoteHence my impression that it was like reading "roleplaying for retards".

Not every word of every game needs to be targeted at us, we're the hardcore, products entirely targeted at us would be useless for anyone else. Some people need "roleplaying for retards".

QuoteNot really difficult, strictly speaking, just tedious, but I get what you mean.

I consider it like the "tech demo" and the "actual game". I'm sure Baker et al had a lot of fun with AW, I'm sure a lot of other groups have as well, but DW refines it a lot.

Quote

*shrug* It works for me, and it clarifies distinction between what happens at the table, in the game mechanics, and in the conversation / imagination of everyone at the table.

Quote from: Noclue;736664What if you want to make it somewhat less difficult, rather than negligible? Like, I don't know, you've got good climbing shoes. Or somewhat more difficult? Maybe a strong breeze is blowing. You look in the book and it says simply, the GM makes it more difficult, without any further explanation. What do I do?

It never just says "the GM makes it more difficult".

Quote from: 3rik;736666It never just says "the GM makes it more difficult".

Actually, that's what it would say if we make the change you suggested above when you said it would be sufficient to just say the GM changes the difficulty. You may be assuming somewhere else this point would be further clarified, but why make assumptions? You have the text. You can look.

Quote from: Noclue;736669Actually, that's what it would say if we make the change you suggested above when you said it would be sufficient to just say the GM changes the difficulty. You may be assuming somewhere else this point would be further clarified, but why make assumptions? You have the text. You can look.

Obviously some explanation about the mechanics should be given, like in any game.

Quote from: 3rik;736676Obviously some explanation about the mechanics should be given, like in any game.

Again, you have the text. You can look at the mechanic referenced in the section you revised, the Defy Danger move, and see what is discussed. Once you've read that, then you may know if instructing GMs to change the difficulty is sufficient. I'm not sure why you've switched to an abstract discussion after commenting on the sufficiency of a specific piece of text. I like the specificity, rather than broadening the discussion to a general statement about what games should have.

I'm not challenging your opinion of the writing. You're indisputably the world's top expert of what you find tedious. I am wondering why you think you know anything about the role of that text in instructing players of a game you haven't read and don't seem to want to understand.

Quote from: Noclue;736678Again, you have the text. You can look at the mechanic referenced in the section you revised, the Defy Danger move, and see what is discussed. Once you've read that, then you may know if instructing GMs to change the difficulty is sufficient. I'm not sure why you've switched to an abstract discussion after commenting on the sufficiency of a specific piece if text. I like the specificity, rather than broadening the discussion to a general statement about what games should have.

I'm not challenging your opinion of the writing. You're indisputably the world's top expert of what you find tedious. I am wondering why you think you know anything about the role of that text in instructing players of a game you haven't read and don't seem to want to understand.

Of course, if you want to stick to the "Triggering of Moves" and "expressing everything through Teh Fiction" you're also going to need to explain each and every thing specifically, because none of that is a particularly obvious way of stating the obvious.

Quote from: 3rik;736680"Triggering of Moves"

"When to use this particular subsystem"

Quote"expressing everything through Teh Fiction"

"Don't talk in game mechanics"