Quote from: Old Geezer;733498I didn't find it pretentious, but I did find it "trying too hard" to be sarcastic and ironic an' shit.  The class descriptions are all written with the attitude of 'We all know these old school classes and archetypes are old fashioned and lame but we're putting them in the game in a hip and ironic way.'

Playing a Paladin was fun.  Playing with a guy who was playing a Fighter was fun.

Reading the descriptions of the classes made me groan.

FWIW, Sage and Adam may like to write with ironic humor, but I have never known them to say that classes are lame. I'm confident they don't feel that way nor intended the book to come off that way. And, in my opinion the book doesn't come off that way at all. Of course, opinions, they like to differ.

Quote from: Simlasa;733435So it exists as a kind of permission-slip from the hipsters allowing trenders to engage in old-school play?

In essence, yes.  Which means that Storygames have now reached the point that White Wolf Swine reached when they got to Exalted.

I always said that Exalted is to White Wolf "Storytelling Games" what "artistic french erotic cinema" is to porn movies.  Its what people who imagine themselves "too good" for regular porn resort to for titillation, erotica that still allows them to pretend its "art" or more "sophisticated" than what the "unwashed masses" like.
Exalted is uber-powergaming in the exact same sense that WW-Swine spent a decade insulting D&D for; but it kept that veneer of WW-smugness and pseudo-artistry so that WW players could have something to play without having to admit they were wrong about what's actually good.

DW has fulfilled the same function now for Storygamers.  It lets them pretend that they're still being radical pseudo-intellectuals who are so much better than regular gamers, it even makes them think that they're cleverly playing a storygame that puts on a facade of an RPG; when in fact all they're doing is playing an RPG with the crumbling facade of being a storygame.  Its the feather on the cap of their creative bankruptcy.

RPGPundit

Quote from: talysman;733446Actually, it's an UNpretentious way of saying that. Or rather,as Dan pointed out, it's stuff that's happening in the game world, not the game.

I was actually on the Forge forums for a couple years back around 2004 to 2006 or so. At one point, someone introduced the term "Shared Imagined Space", which they immediately abbreviated to SIS, and it became a buzzword. And it was very annoying, not only because it was opaque like a lot of Forge jargon, but because the hot idea at the time was to focus on "the people around the table", and there was a lot of pretentious talk examining the SIS as a product of human interaction and the game's rules as a method of governing how the players interacted and blah blah blah...

As far as I know, I was the one who introduced "the fiction" on the Forge as a less pretentious way of talking about what your elf is doing what as opposed to what you are doing. I didn't mean it in the storygamer sense -- it has nothing to do with making stories -- but in the more common sense of "stuff that isn't real". And I specifically brought up the distinction between system vs. fiction because the Forgeoisie have a long-term problem understanding what "Simulationism" is; they couldn't quite grasp that some people are more interested in what that stupid elf is doing than in mastering game rules.

That's pretty amusing, that "the fiction" is the closest they could get to trying to make up jargon that was straightforward. That they actually thought they were simplifying things by using that.

Its like when Democrats try to make up soundbytes to compete with the republican spin machine; they're usually so terribly fucking bad at it because they can't even fathom what will actually sell in Peoria, they went so far down the bureaucratic rabbit-hole that they don't know how normal people talk anymore.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;735339DW has fulfilled the same function now for Storygamers.  It lets them pretend that they're still being radical pseudo-intellectuals who are so much better than regular gamers, it even makes them think that they're cleverly playing a storygame that puts on a facade of an RPG; when in fact all they're doing is playing an RPG with the crumbling facade of being a storygame.  Its the feather on the cap of their creative bankruptcy.

I'm not actually sure that storygamers who "pretend they are so much better than regular gamers" exist as an identifiable group, just opinionated individuals.  When people say they're interested in trying a new Fiasco playbook, they usually end up being the same people who also play in a Labyrinth Lord game.

Today I was at a new player's place for our 1980 Runequest game (we rotate hosting) and in his game room his shelves had things like My Life With Master and Dogs In the Vineyard right next to his Swords & Wizardry book and his Moldvay D&D.  

So I think you might be conflating the opinions of individuals with entire groups of people.  And this idea of ongoing war between storygamers and traditional RPGs might also not actually reflect reality.

Quote from: RPGPundit;735339DW has fulfilled the same function now for Storygamers.  It lets them pretend that they're still being radical pseudo-intellectuals who are so much better than regular gamers (...)

I get the impression it even fulfills such a role for certain players of traditional RPGs - though these people seem less big on the pseudo-intellectualism - who seem convinced that AW and DW offer a more clever, more effective way of playing than other RPGs; that they fix something that was broken or dysfunctional in other games.

Quote from: NathanIW;735346I'm not actually sure that storygamers who "pretend they are so much better than regular gamers" exist as an identifiable group, just opinionated individuals.

On an RPG discussion board I used to visit I've experienced a small clique of forum members behaving like this. Though there was never anything resembling a full-on conflict or attempt at subversion, there was clearly a smug, pseudo-intellectually elitist attitude towards players of more traditional RPGs. They were only a very small group, though, but no less annoying for it.



I wonder how many of these people are now playing AW & hacks like it's the next big thing in innovative arty farty gaming...

Quote from: 3rik;735380On an RPG discussion board I used to visit I've experienced a small clique of forum members behaving like this. Though there was never anything resembling a full-on conflict or attempt at subversion, there was clearly a smug, pseudo-intellectually elitist attitude towards players of more traditional RPGs. They were only a very small group, though, but no less annoying for it.

That's awful. Are you okay?

Quote from: NathanIW;735346I'm not actually sure that storygamers who "pretend they are so much better than regular gamers" exist as an identifiable group, just opinionated individuals.

I'm sure there are, but no more than you'll find across the rest of RPG fandom... ie, so few that we should basically just ignore them, because they have nothing valid to say.

QuoteAnd this idea of ongoing war between storygamers and traditional RPGs might also not actually reflect reality.

It lets certain people pretend that they're an OPPRESSED MINORITY of ONE TRUE WAY thinkers, and use that as their excuse for being a cunt on the internet. Of course, the rest of us know that the "war" is only in one side's heads, and just get on with things.

Basically, it's a symptom of the crazy that we should try and kick out of roleplaying circles.

Quote from: Noclue;735397That's awful. Are you okay?

It wasn't that bad, haha. They were easily ignored. It was just an example demonstrating that such storygamers do exist as a group. But like Ladybird, I also don't think they're a majority.

Quote from: 3rik;735380They were only a very small group, though, but no less annoying for it.

I don't know if it's Pundit's tendency towards absolutism and lumping people together willy-nilly, but I'm pretty sure extrapolating the existence of such a group into the idea that their actions, attitudes or positions describe all  "storygamers" as a category isn't likely that smart.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

Quote from: 3rik;735418It wasn't that bad, haha. They were easily ignored. It was just an example demonstrating that such storygamers do exist as a group. But like Ladybird, I also don't think they're a majority.

I am not sure if I have ever met a storygamer.

How would I identify them?

Quote from: Bill;735627I am not sure if I have ever met a storygamer.

How would I identify them?

Offline? I have no idea. On forums? Well, the type of storygamer I was referring to is very vocal about their preferences in gaming and openly disapproving of traditional RPGs. You can't mistake them for anything else, really. But again, I haven't encountered many of them and I certainly don't think they are a large group making organized efforts at destroying traditional RPG or anything like that.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;733427It's still pretentious. People have referred to that distinction for, literally, longer than I've been alive.

"In the game world" or, heaven forfend, "in-character" or some other commonly used and easily understood phrase.

Plus, "the fiction" as a phrase directly assaults the suspension of disbelief. It's a pretentious and pointless way of phrasing something common and easy to understand.

Since what you are talking about is based on player preference, "I think not." Or at least that's what my character says...

Quote from: Bill;735627I am not sure if I have ever met a storygamer.

How would I identify them?

Depending on the variety:

Long hair. Tie dye. Hemp. Patchouli oil. "When we all just start working together, man, it'll all, like work out."

Propaganda. Hammer and sickle. Rants about capitalism and the evil of money. "In the glorious future there will only be dice-less GM-less art games that no one will play."



(None of these people exist. There's no such thing as a "storygamer." There's just people who happen to like different things in games. Some of them can be dicks about it. Some of them are alright. Don't worry about figuring out if someone is a "storygamer" just play what you like, learn from what others play, and get on with gaming.)

Pundy's Swine jihad is a cruise through Crazytown, but that said, watching this panel video on collaborative world-building from Contessa reminds me that the attitudes of smug condescension and pseudo-intellectualism which fuel his conspiratorial ravings do exist among some roleplaying gamers.