Thanks to this thread, I have discovered Points of Light. I do find it to be a very, very interesting product and approach to 'adventures modules'.
Also, I'm quite happy to see its success, that this type of product has its customers. I've been arguing for years that we need more innovative ways to propose those 'adventures modules'. Since I'm also working on my own take on this subject (with existanc3), I'd like to share with you some similiarities and differences I see between the two approaches.

Similarities [that I see]:
- we're both coming out with quite a traditional setting (vanilla, if you like)
- we're providing some kind of 'box full of ideas'
- we don't provide stats (non system dependant)
- we divide our material into 'bits' or 'units' (coordinate of an hex for PoL, events for ExiStanc3)
- we want to have a product that reduces the preparation time for the DM
- we leave all the details to the DM to create (the products are designed to leave room for the input of the DM)
- we're both proposing stories from a very high point of view

Differences:
- Avalanche (our first campaign) needs a more important 'buy in' from the DMs: they need to read more material before starting the campaign
- Avalanche is time dependant: the DM needs to keep track of time 'in the game'
- I think Avalanche is more complex as the various stories overlap each others, the setting is bigger ... I don't know if it is a good thing or not.
- the production cost of LoP is way lower than Avalanche. I guess this helps LoP setting the bar for this type of product.

Questions:
- Are there other products that propose new types of adventures modules that you could recommand me?
- Do you think it is a good news that new types of adventures modules are proposed?

Quote from: pells;735017Thanks to this thread, I have discovered Points of Light. I do find it to be a very, very interesting product and approach to 'adventures modules'.

Appreciate the compliment and the shout out.

Quote from: pells;735017Since I'm also working on my own take on this subject (with existanc3), I'd like to share with you some similiarities and differences I see between the two approaches.

Some comments

1) your production values are outstanding
2) You are on the right track as far as what Lord Vreeg, myself, and others call "World in Motion". The art of advancing the setting in time throughout a campaign.
3) However it way too wordy. You need to edit, cull and cut the text down to the minimum needed to explain your approach.

Some comments, designers notes if you will

Quote from: pells;735017Similarities [that I see]:
- we're both coming out with quite a traditional setting (vanilla, if you like)

I opt for this because it allows the buyer to use the wealth of tropes around vanilla fantasy to bring the material to life. People disparage vanilla fantasy but forget the wealth of details created around it. So much that you can make campaigns that are quite different by what you pick from the various vanilla tropes.

Quote from: pells;735017- we don't provide stats (non system dependant)

My general rule is that within reason, it better pick a target system and present stats. Why? Because only a subset of gamers buy generic products or product designed for other games. Whether you have stats or not doesn't matter to this group. They intend to adapt anyway so it is a wash.

So by including stats you get the fans of the chosen system along with the gamers that are willing to buy generic.

The exception to this are games where the customer expect elaborate stat block like Pathfinder.  Then you are better off going generic. And looking at what you want to target going generic is going to be the way for up.

So why are there no stats in my books?

In Points of Light I had to deal with a strict word count due to this being a first of it kind product from Goodman Games. That is main reason why there are no stats. With Blackmarsh it was because I was trying to keep within the page limit of flat rate full color books on RPGNow.

Otherwise I would have written them up like my Scourge of the Demon Wolf with OD&D/AD&D style minimal stat blocks. However since the majority my release have been statless is probably "expected" for me to continue that. So likely I will go statless for Wild North, my next project in the line.

Quote from: pells;735017- we divide our material into 'bits' or 'units' (coordinate of an hex for PoL, events for ExiStanc3)

I talk about World in Motion in the intro to Blackmarsh.

QuoteIt is suggested that to get maximum use of this setting that the referee look over the locales, then chose the ones that best suit the campaign. Note the NPCs and their circumstances. Develop a timeline of events if the characters are not involved. Detail important locales and add new ones of your own design. Do the same for the NPCs, and make notes on their motivations and personalities.

After each session of the campaign, review what the players did. Look at your original timeline of events, see what impact their actions had, and make the needed changes. Sometimes the players' actions will lead to a new and unexpected chain of events.

Quote from: pells;735017- we're both proposing stories from a very high point of view

I feel Blackmarsh, PoL are at medium level. The World of Greyhawk Gazetteer and the wilderness section of my Majestic Wilderlands supplement are what I consider a very high point of view.

Quote from: pells;735017Differences:
- Avalanche (our first campaign) needs a more important 'buy in' from the DMs: they need to read more material before starting the campaign

That the risk with these types of things. Which is why there is four settings in both PoL products. The concise format of the hexcrawl allowed me to cram more than one in there thus increasing the chances that the buyer will like one of them enough to buy the book.

As it turned out most reviewers wound up saying that they liked one the best,
considered two others good, and didn't care for the fourth. And it wasn't the same from review to review.

As how applicable is this for your project? It is a crap shot as far popularity goes. So your consideration should be on how much work is involved. Right now it looks you focused on the one setting so I would continue with that. The good news is that you have several diverse situations that your are presenting so that will work in your favor.

Quote from: pells;735017- Avalanche is time dependant: the DM needs to keep track of time 'in the game'

Like I said earlier your current literature is way too wordy. You need to cut back the word count and highlight the main points or it going to look like too much work.

Quote from: pells;735017- I think Avalanche is more complex as the various stories overlap each others, the setting is bigger ... I don't know if it is a good thing or not.

I don't know either. If I had to guess, I would say the average referee can juggle three things. But just pure instinct.

Quote from: pells;735017- the production cost of LoP is way lower than Avalanche. I guess this helps LoP setting the bar for this type of product.

Your layout and art are great. Keep that word count down.

Quote from: pells;735017Questions:
- Are there other products that propose new types of adventures modules that you could recommand me?

Yeah there bunch other than me. Just good fantasy sandbox hexcrawl and variations. The Land of Nod is probably more popular than my material and he has more out too.

Quote from: pells;735017- Do you think it is a good news that new types of adventures modules are proposed?

Definitely, what you do may be a total dud, but success or failure we will all learning something and our hobby will be the richer for it.

Finally I would add that in my long range plans I am working on a product I am calling the Campaign. Basically it occupies the level between a adventure scenarios and POL/Blackmarsh.  

In a campaign a region along with several specific locales and NPCs are detailed. The initial situation is described. The most important part of the Campaign product will be the section that will be tools for the referee to dynamically change the above in response to what the players do.

Right now it is largely based on my 30 years of experience running campaigns and writing alternate history over at http://www.alternatehistory.com. It focuses on how to quickly and easily extrapolate the next steps or events based on how campaign progresses.

QuoteAppreciate the compliment and the shout out.

Hey, my pleasure. And thanks for your reply. I'm glad to be able to share insights with you.

Quote1) your production values are outstanding
2) You are on the right track as far as what Lord Vreeg, myself, and others call "World in Motion". The art of advancing the setting in time throughout a campaign.

Thanks.

Quote3) However it way too wordy. You need to edit, cull and cut the text down to the minimum needed to explain your approach.

We might disagree on this, I'm warning you. At the moment, to describe the appoach, the design of what we do, we have produced a separate document (the pdf is here). It is quite short.
As for Avalanche itself, well, yes it is a big book. I've printed some test copies and this is how it looks: it is big, there are two books in fact, the format is very specific.
I'm quite confortable with the word count, and I'll tell you shortly why. As it is designed for the 'setting' part, for instance, the description part is a summary. Also, Avalanche is meant to go into a database and be managed around with a website. Finally, we really took a 'novel' like approach, and people who don't know rpg and have read Avalanche really liked it (I've got more of those than gamers).

QuoteMy general rule is that within reason, it better pick a target system and present stats.

Have you thougth of producing separate files, containing the stats bloc (or 'adaptation rules'). That's what we are doing and there is, I believe, a firm trend of 'multi systems' campaigns, present on KickStarter.

QuoteI talk about World in Motion in the intro to Blackmarsh.

Yes, I understand and it is a good advice. That said Avalanche is specifically designed to help the DM manage the time (it is not a recommandation, it is a specific design).
Otherwise, what I meant by 'units' is really the coordinates of your hexcrawl. And that is a very strong pattern. Do I have to prepare a game? Where are my players? There. I can specifically read the small text concerning that hex. It is not chapter based: the information is strongly classified.
For Existanc3, it is a little bit the small thing, except you refer to 'events' (small texts) depending on location and time in game.

QuoteThat the risk with these types of things. Which is why there is four settings in both PoL products.

We have the same type of comments. Avalanche presents five 'stories' occuring at the same time. Players can't do all of them (because of the time constraint). Our stories are very different in nature: horror, politic, high adventure, à la seven samurais. People prefer some material over the others, but it is always different.
I do understand this as some kind of menu we offer to our customers and they pick what they want. And then again, a linear structure (chapter based) could hardly offer that.

QuoteI don't know either. If I had to guess, I would say the average referee can juggle three things. But just pure instinct.

I'm not particulary afraid about this. I just think your material is probably more 'ready to use'.

QuoteThe Land of Nod is probably more popular than my material and he has more out too.

I'll have to check this out. Thanks.

QuoteIn a campaign a region along with several specific locales and NPCs are detailed. The initial situation is described. The most important part of the Campaign product will be the section that will be tools for the referee to dynamically change the above in response to what the players do.

That is a big part of what we are doing. And that is one of the feature of the website.
A little aparté: my day to day job is project manager, so I use MS Project to manipulate a GANTT. A GANTT is composed of 'tasks' and you can tell if a task is late, or early (or not happening), what effects it has on the 'big picture' and manage the impact. For existanc3, we're changing 'tasks' by 'events' but the 'features' stays the same (identify impact).

I do have a couple of questions, if you allow me:
- you mentionned selling over 5K copies (which is a good success). Over what time period did you acheived it?
- how hard/important/structural was it to introduce a new type of products? I do feel myself that the biggets stake is there.
- Do you feel that you can't tell exactly how DMs will use your product? Do you find it to be asset?

Quote from: pells;735209We might disagree on this, I'm warning you. At the moment, to describe the appoach, the design of what we do, we have produced a separate document (the pdf is here). It is quite short.

First off all of what I am about to say is my opinion. Second, like a referee of a campaign it your book your rules.

With that being said, I read that pdf and it is the reason for my comment. It just way too wordy. We all have our own writing style but you are not writing novel prose here. It is a technical piece of writing.

While my spelling and grammar sucks and needs a good editor. One thing that has been hammered in me is brevity. Especially when it comes to technical writing which gaming products are a subset of.


For example this is from Page 3 Universe.

QuoteRather than providing the game master with a story, it provides him with a wide variety of important elements in order for him to be able to write his own scenarios. Within a ‘universe’ we can find elements similar to those found in a scenario book (i.e.characters, objects, locations, time frames, etc.) but without a given plotline. Occasionally, a historical depth can also be present, for instance in the form of important past events that shaped the world, major achievements of influential figures or noteworthy artefacts and locations of the presented universe. Some products also describe events that have yet come to pass and consequences that could ensue from them. In the end, universe books offer a strong setting,a detailed canvas with a particular atmosphere or theme well suited for the writing of scenarios. The game master’s task is then to write down, or at least plan, the scenes and events the characters will be going through.

The benefit offered by this type of product is the possibility to build much more open storylines, designed specifically for the players and their characters. It is no longer a story being told, but their story being lived. Unfortunately, the workload and expertise required from the narrator is in this case much greater. The universe itself will also be proportionally farther-reaching and more detailed, and so will the need for the narrator to prepare himself, and gather information and resources in accordance with his story.

242 words

I believe the following says the same things but uses only 139 words

QuoteThe ‘universe’ uses an approach opposite to the scenario. The universe uses the same elements as a scenario (i.e. characters, background history, objects, locations, time frames, etc) but without a given plotline. Some products may describe possible future events and the consquences that could ensue from them. Regardless of the details the goal of these products is to layout a canvas that the gamemaster can use to develop the scenarios of his campaign.

The benefit of this approach is a more open storyline that is tailored to the player and their characters. A storyline that is shaped dynamically by the players as the campaign progresses. The consquence of this approach is that workload and expertise required of the narrator is increased. This type of product makes it easier for the narrator to manage the diverse range of choices offered.

I wasn't sure of the meaning of the last part of the second paragraph so I wrote is my best guess.

You don't need 14 pages to explain what you are trying to do. And that document will shrink your potential customer base due to how verbose it is.

I am stressing this because I want you to succeed. I think sandbox campaigns are the one thing about tabletop that other forms of roleplaying (MMORPGs) are weak on. So projects like yours are vital to the future of the hobby.

Quote from: pells;735209Have you thougth of producing separate files, containing the stats bloc (or 'adaptation rules'). That's what we are doing and there is, I believe, a firm trend of 'multi systems' campaigns, present on KickStarter.

My observation that separates stats files are of limited use for marketing. On average gamers react negatively to a product relying on stat block addendum.

The only product I know to be an exception to this is the old Thieves World boxed set. So if you want to try this for your own project look at that for inspiration on how to present it.

Quote from: pells;735209A little aparté: my day to day job is project manager, so I use MS Project to manipulate a GANTT. A GANTT is composed of 'tasks' and you can tell if a task is late, or early (or not happening), what effects it has on the 'big picture' and manage the impact. For existanc3, we're changing 'tasks' by 'events' but the 'features' stays the same (identify impact).

I am a programmer of motion control software in my job. It a small company so I do just about everything related to software development, maintenance and release. One thing I caution on is don't be overly literal about applying your training to gaming. Being able to setup and manage projects with GANNTT and other tools is a specialized skill. The same with my skill with breaking down complex tasks into parts that can be programmed.

We are writing for an audience that not only doesn't share specialized training but also reading books dealing with a highly optional leisure activity. The important thing is be able to project yourself into their shoes and view the project in the light of their eyes. That it isn't riddled your assumptions and expectations.

For example one reason OD&D appears so disorganized was it was written by and for the community of miniature wargammers. Who kept in contact through newletters and zine resolving around Diplomacy, wargaming, etc.

It is riddled with the shared experience of that group. When exploded outside of the group, a lot of folks when huh? But the game was so compelling that they made do and just made up stuff to cover over what they didn't understand or what was lacking.

While the thought is nice that our respective products could that compelling, it likely it will just be another book on a shelf full of other gaming books. The way get the gamer to keep taking off his shelf it build in enough usefulness and enough value that he wants to pull it. That he can quickly find what he looking for and quickly comprehend it.

In the end gaming books are meant not be read but to be used. Anything in the way of being useful any words that are not needed to make it useful needs to pared and tossed aside no matter how nice it sounds (or looks in the case of art).

Before you think I am down on art, I feel art is important for both illustrate and generating excitement to keep the gamer reading. Right now the best example of this is the DCC RPG. The text pages for the most part are just simple b/w layouts. But then you get this art and a handful of specially laid out pages that make you go wow! That perfectly evoke the spirit of the product.

With your layout and art you got a shot of doing that. Just remember in the end the layout still have to be useful. And for god sake remember that people are going to be using this as a PDF and printing stuff along with the book itself.

Quote from: pells;735209- you mentionned selling over 5K copies (which is a good success). Over what time period did you acheived it?

From April, 2011 to date. 791 of those were on the first month, 200+ for the next two month, then a 100+ for a further. Then it hovered between 50 to 100 from Aug 2011 to Oct 2012, then went to 100 to 150 a month from Oct to date. I only had 158 print sales during that time. For every 30 downloads I get one print sale.

And this is not counting my website downloads, the Heroes and Other World version, the Hungarian Version, the number of hits on the Swords & Wizardry wiki, or the number of Delving Deeper boxed sets.

The only fly in the ointment has been my own writing pace. With my job and family I am lucky to get one product out a year. So I haven't been exploit the modest amount of publicity it has given me.

Quote from: pells;735209- how hard/important/structural was it to introduce a new type of products? I do feel myself that the biggets stake is there.

The basic trick is twofold
1) I had a clear idea of what I wanted to pursue which helped to focus my limited time and budge.

Goal 1 was to publish my Majestic Wilderlands setting. Goal 2 is to popularize the hexcrawl format for settings.

2) I participated in the gaming community by contributed to various projects, notably the Necromancer Games Boxed Set. I had the opportunity by putting out a lot of free and useful stuff for the wilderlands over prior years. This lead to a license from Judges Guild as well as writing projects with Goodman Games.

3) I maintained and posted regular on a blog. Bat in the Attic my case.

What this resulted in that I was fairly certain that I would have a 100 sales. With the economics of Lulu this means I could get my stuff out there and make a couple of hundred bucks. Some of it I would pocket, fund my hobby basically, and the rest would be used to fund better art for the next project.

I focused on the Majestic Wilderlands because I had numerous groups that played very differently from each other enjoy the campaign. So I figured others would enjoy as well.

I focused on the hexcrawl format because it seems that not only I like the format that nobody else seemed to be doing anything with it. I also feel and continue to feel that it has great utility.
 

Quote from: pells;735209- Do you feel that you can't tell exactly how DMs will use your product? Do you find it to be asset?

I try to write firmly but humbly. I acknowledge that there are many other approaches, that for all practical sense most hobbyists campaigns are hybrids. Then I say very clearly this is how I do things and most importantly explain why. I try to keep in mind that my product is not likely to be used 'as is' but in conjunction with whatever other books the buyer has.

And thanks to some writing seminar ran by a friend and my training in technical writing, I write no more than I have too on any topic. In fact I been criticized, including by the Pundit, for being too terse.

QuoteWith that being said, I read that pdf and it is the reason for my comment. It just way too wordy. We all have our own writing style but you are not writing novel prose here. It is a technical piece of writing.

While my spelling and grammar sucks and needs a good editor. One thing that has been hammered in me is brevity. Especially when it comes to technical writing which gaming products are a subset of.

Ha okay, I see. I'll tell you a secret: we're many persons working on this, and the two main people who wrote that document (me and Francis) both have a degree in philosophy. That may explains some of the length of our explanations. That said, I guess I would agree with you.

QuoteI am stressing this because I want you to succeed.

No problem. I take it that way.

QuoteI think sandbox campaigns are the one thing about tabletop that other forms of roleplaying (MMORPGs) are weak on. So projects like yours are vital to the future of the hobby.

Well thanks for the kind word. Yes, stories is [should be] what our hobby is about. We need them and we need new ways to present them.

Quote from: pells;735237That said, I guess I would agree with you.

The above was the same initial reaction to my friend comments on my writing. Then one day it just clicked and while he still pares things when he edits my stuff, I am just as ruthless before it hits his desk.

You and your partners have good things to say, just try not to use as many words to say them.

QuoteThe above was the same initial reaction to my friend comments on my writing. Then one day it just clicked and while he still pares things when he edits my stuff, I am just as ruthless before it hits his desk.

Before going on with a lenghtly answer I'd like to just present you the specific of my situation:
- I will be running a KickStarter campaign to finance the website to manage Avalanche. My KS is scheduled to start on March 28th.
- KickStarter or not, we will be launching Avalanche and begin to sell it (in pdf).
- I'm very, very open to change things. For instance, we have removed the book from the KS campaign, I've edited some parts of Avalanche for our teasers, we have reduced our price range by 30% ...
- That said, I'm a native french speaker. So, the time to market (TTM) for us, when producing content (such as the 14 pages pdf) is very, very long for me. I need to write the text in french, edit it, get it into translation, edit the translation, update the file, and publish ...
- So, I may agree, but I think the changes might only occur later for my project (we will need a text of presentation for the final product)

QuoteI think sandbox campaigns are the one thing about tabletop that other forms of roleplaying (MMORPGs) are weak on. So projects like yours are vital to the future of the hobby.

That is very nice of you to say. Can I use that quote elsewhere (let's say on my KS page with your name and a link to a page you want)?
One of the goal we have with Avalanche is to extend the hobby to new comers (this doesn't work as well as we wish and we need to begin with gamers) with something that is easy to read and do not look as a technical document (I know, I know). Also, Avalanche is, on purpose, an unfinished product (a storyboard approach).

QuoteMy observation that separates stats files are of limited use for marketing. On average gamers react negatively to a product relying on stat block addendum.

The only product I know to be an exception to this is the old Thieves World boxed set. So if you want to try this for your own project look at that for inspiration on how to present it.

I was referring to what Red Aegis and achtung cthulhu did in their respective KS campaign.
What I have in mind is separate files that we will give away.

QuoteWe are writing for an audience that not only doesn't share specialized training but also reading books dealing with a highly optional leisure activity. The important thing is be able to project yourself into their shoes and view the project in the light of their eyes. That it isn't riddled your assumptions and expectations.

I can assure you, there is no reference to GANTT or MS Project in the presentation of the project. Lately, I had to write technical documents and give explanations to a developer for a quote for the website. The GANTT reference was discovered in that context (it was not designed with it in mind).

QuoteThe only fly in the ointment has been my own writing pace. With my job and family I am lucky to get one product out a year. So I haven't been exploit the modest amount of publicity it has given me.

Ha, I know the feeling (I have three kids). I did have the chance in the last six months to be able to work on this part time. That said, we're aiming to release a product a year.

QuoteI focused on the hexcrawl format because it seems that not only I like the format that nobody else seemed to be doing anything with it. I also feel and continue to feel that it has great utility.

I agree with you on this. Speaking of which, concerning one of your prior comment, I believe you're doing med level and I'm doing high level content. I think I could integrate hexcrawl for Avalanche. For instance, there is a big forest on my map, and I could detail it using hexcrawl. But then, I would be giving a lot more details.

QuoteI acknowledge that there are many other approaches, that for all practical sense most hobbyists campaigns are hybrids. Then I say very clearly this is how I do things and most importantly explain why. I try to keep in mind that my product is not likely to be used 'as is' but in conjunction with whatever other books the buyer has.

One thing I have been advocating for some time is to state the biais present in a product. It won't pleased everyone and that's fine. But at least it is going to be clear for those who are interested in that type of play.

Thanks again for your time.

On the subject, and I hope this helps understand the vision we have about Avalanche, our KickStarter video is now ready!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO9Vpf_LtDo&feature=youtu.be

I hope you find this video informative and exciting!!

Thanks for your time and interest.