It is a pretentious game to me. That's the hardest part of reading it. Still, that does not mean it isn't a fun game to play, and I'd be perfectly happy to give it a try. I don't feel like it offers me anything I can't get experientially in many other more "traditional" RPGs, but neither does BBF and I love that little game.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733389This is the strength of traditional RPGs: the player says something, rolls the dice, and it happens.  But in a storygame (or even DW), the rules are not clear in this regard.

FWIW my experiences are almost opposite. Storygames are normally associated with rigid rules application compared to traditional RPGs, which more readily rely on GM's discretion. This is not inherent in all storygames but its a common trend.

Dungeon World also tends to be much more clear and explicit about rules application. For example, each rule in DW includes a specific "in-game" trigger compared to the traditional RPG approach of having rules sit in isolation, like a skill list, that are reliant on the GM to decide when to calls rolls for. Sometimes, the difference here is minimal so it can be hard to distinguish them. In a traditional RPG common sense will tell you when a GM should call for many rolls ("I don't want to be seen" is the trigger for using the Stealth skill") but DW rules are just more clear in this regard.

I think the confusion you are seeing is not so much with the rules application but the slight shift in some assumed concepts that DW contains.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733419"The fiction" is a pretentious way of saying "stuff that's happening in the game."

Actually, it's an UNpretentious way of saying that. Or rather,as Dan pointed out, it's stuff that's happening in the game world, not the game.

I was actually on the Forge forums for a couple years back around 2004 to 2006 or so. At one point, someone introduced the term "Shared Imagined Space", which they immediately abbreviated to SIS, and it became a buzzword. And it was very annoying, not only because it was opaque like a lot of Forge jargon, but because the hot idea at the time was to focus on "the people around the table", and there was a lot of pretentious talk examining the SIS as a product of human interaction and the game's rules as a method of governing how the players interacted and blah blah blah...

As far as I know, I was the one who introduced "the fiction" on the Forge as a less pretentious way of talking about what your elf is doing what as opposed to what you are doing. I didn't mean it in the storygamer sense -- it has nothing to do with making stories -- but in the more common sense of "stuff that isn't real". And I specifically brought up the distinction between system vs. fiction because the Forgeoisie have a long-term problem understanding what "Simulationism" is; they couldn't quite grasp that some people are more interested in what that stupid elf is doing than in mastering game rules.

Now, I haven't read Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, or any story game for several years, so I don't know how pretentiously "the fiction" may be in current usage. But it was never meant to be used in anything but a practical sense.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733389While I know that this site considers DW to be an Official RPG Product (Swine Un-Approved), the game has clear storygame roots, which is something I'd like to discuss briefly.  In a traditional RPG, the rules are very clear-cut in how they function: when you want to sneak, you roll Stealth; when you want to swordfight, you roll Swordsmanship; and so on.

This is the strength of traditional RPGs: the player says something, rolls the dice, and it happens.  But in a storygame (or even DW), the rules are not clear in this regard.  I've seen a lot of confusion and consternation on how moves are triggered in the game, when to roll, and when the DM is supposed to act.  I mean, someone on SomethingAwful wrote up a huge long guide on how the game is supposed to be run because it was too hard for new players to understand.

Maybe it's just poorly-explained rules, but I think that it has more to do with the idea that everyone is sharing in a narrative experience rather than playing a game.

You've changed your mind since this then?

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=693684&postcount=1

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733389Maybe it's just poorly-explained rules, but I think that it has more to do with the idea that everyone is sharing in a narrative experience rather than playing a game.

I think it has to do with how the rules are invoked.

In 3.x (and many other games), you invoke the rule, and describe what's happening.  In DW (and many other games, including old school D&D), you describe what you're doing, and then if that requires a roll you figure out what to roll.

Both work.  But if you're strongly used to one, it's jarring to go to the other.

Quote from: talysman;733446I was actually on the Forge forums for a couple years back around 2004 to 2006 or so. . . . As far as I know, I was the one who introduced "the fiction" on the Forge as a less pretentious way of talking about what your elf is doing what as opposed to what you are doing.

Quote from: One Horse Town;733447You've changed your mind since this then?

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=693684&postcount=1

:rotfl:

Hey, for a troll, at least AF comes up with somewhat interesting topics to bash about.

All this talk of DW is actually making me curious. I might break down and buy the damn thing one of these days.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;733414I was under the assumption that this was the way all people played RPGs, until I started reading web forums.

God help me, I wish I could say the same.

It's just a couple of guys in my group (unsurprisingly, the same two who bailed out of my current OD&D game) but it's still depressing.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733419"The fiction" is a pretentious way of saying "stuff that's happening in the game."

Yeah, you got stuff happening in any game but in this game it's Teh Fiction.



Was this lingo adapted straight from Apocalypse World?

Quote from: Simlasa;733435So it exists as a kind of permission-slip from the hipsters allowing trenders to engage in old-school play?

Exactly. I'm curious if Apocalypse World fills the same niche, by the way.

Quote from: jhkim;733440While the word "fiction" isn't commonly used - traditional RPGs have been using similar terms like "scene", "story", "chronicle", "plot arc",

Dude, Torg guy here. Scene, Act, Subplot card, Act Awards, Dramatic or Standard scene for combat — I know this happens.

That's irrelevant. This phrase — "the Fiction" — is both pretentious and disruptive. It's a pointless affectation.

"In-game" or "in-character" is better, clearer, and less affected.

EDIT:

Quote from: talysman;733446As far as I know, I was the one who introduced "the fiction" on the Forge as a less pretentious way

I will readily concede "The Fiction" is less pretentious than Shared Imagination Space. In comparison.

But in comparison to "in-game" or "in-character", it's still pretentious.

I'm not trying to say you are, but this phrase definitely is.

From what I read it's common Swine practice to take a fairly common term and endow it with pretentious meaning and value. "Indie" once simply meant "independently published", nowadays we have to resort to "small press" if we want to refer to indie games that don't hold hipster cred.

Quote from: The Butcher;733452All this talk of DW is actually making me curious. I might break down and buy the damn thing one of these days.

Almost the entire text is available online, if you want to read it before buying it. All it's missing is the margin notes.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;733455But in comparison to "in-game" or "in-character", it's still pretentious.

Alright. So?

Quote from: Simlasa;733435So it exists as a kind of permission-slip from the hipsters allowing trenders to engage in old-school play?

EDIT:  You're right.  I didn't realize who you were talking about.

So on a Forgeoisie tangent, my original post:

A solid majority of the most vocal Forgeoisie (love that term, by the way) play an old school game of some sort on a regular basis.  The idea that there are these hipsters who look down on your way of playing isn't exactly accurate.  When they have discussions about these games though, they sometimes don't even talk about them in their jargon and theory talk.  For example, here's Luke Crane (author of Burning Wheel, Mouseguard and co-conspirator with Jason Morningstar) talking about his D&D game:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5

Quote from: Luke CraneWhy is this era of D&D about puzzle-solving and exploration? Because your characters are fragile and treasure compromises 4/5s of the experience you earn, whereas fighting monsters earns only 1/5. Thus if there's a big monster guarding a valuable piece of treasure, the incentive is to figure out a way to get the treasure without fighting the monster. Fight only as a last resort; explore first so you can better solve. This shift in emphasis away from fighting was frustrating at first, but then profoundly refreshing once we sussed out the logic.

I think this forum has a tendency to lump together people as "story-gamers" or "forgists" without actually looking at what any individual is doing.

Quote from: NathanIW;733467The idea that there are these hipsters who look down on your way of playing isn't exactly accurate.

Well, I'm basing that comment on nonsense I've seen on TBP... talk of games being 'evolved' vs. 'old', 'obsolete'... general chatter. Not that I've run into such nonsense in the real world. People who turn their nose up at OD&D but praise DW as the hot new thing.
I was also only half-seriously trying to paraphrase what CRKrueger wrote.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;733455Dude, Torg guy here. Scene, Act, Subplot card, Act Awards, Dramatic or Standard scene for combat — I know this happens.

That's irrelevant. This phrase — "the Fiction" — is both pretentious and disruptive. It's a pointless affectation.

.

I have to agree with how "the fiction" comes across here. It is one of those terms I hear, and it just feels too haughty for what we are talking about. If people want to use it, they are free to do so, but its one of those words (like tall mocha latte or venti filthy dirty chai) that just feel unnatural if I attempt to say it. I feel like I need to get a new zip code if I am going to start using it.

Quote"The Fiction"

I'm reminded of the Southpark episode where everyone sniffs their own farts and enjoy it.