Quote from: Sacrosanct;730568pg 67 of the DMG talks about subdual in general, using non lethal parts of a weapon.  Page 72 is what you want, where it talks about weaponless combat, and specifically says that pummeling is only 25% real damage.

And yes, I would consider a monk's open hand damage to be exempt from this because it's a class feature.  Something that particular class is specialized in.  

In OA the monk was overhauled. The monk uses a martial style like anyone else but they get aditional attacks and abilities. The monk's kung-fu is the same as that of a bushi and the damage caused by it is actual damage. This is because a martial style is not "pummeling".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;730568And as mentioned, unarmed attackers always go last against an armed attacker, as per the DMG.  So that 1st level fighter double spec'd with his katana, always going first, makes the fight not nearly as one sided as you're thinking.

During a round in which someone is charging yes the longer weapon gains initiative. Once combat is joined it is all down to the die roll. In case of a tie, speed factor determines who strikes first. In that case it will be the open handed fighter. See [Simultaneous Initiative] on p66 of the DMG. As an added slap to the face (literally!) A speed factor 1 unarmed attack against ANY speed factor higher than 1 will be entitled to extra attacks.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;730571b) it seemed crazy powerful to assume it was real damage like a weapon

Yes it was. That was kind of my point. OA martial arts were very flavorful, and loads of fun, as well as being overpowered as all hell.

So...1e OA can be just as "anime"* as 4e, then?

*=by wich I mean, Fist of the North Star.

...I'm not really complaining, mind you!

Quote from: The Ent;730637So...1e OA can be just as "anime"* as 4e, then?

*=by wich I mean, Fist of the North Star.

...I'm not really complaining, mind you!

Kind of.  I always envisioned OA martial arts as classic kung-fu movies. Mysterious masters with mystical styles that taught feats such as ironskin, the eagle claw and so forth.

" Who in the hell teaches you kung-fu? You don't know a thing!"

" For some who is a Shaolin monk, your kung-fu is pretty lousy!"

" Heh. You're kung-fu is useless against me!"

Quote from: Exploderwizard;730649Kind of.  I always envisioned OA martial arts as classic kung-fu movies. Mysterious masters with mystical styles that taught feats such as ironskin, the eagle claw and so forth.

" Who in the hell teaches you kung-fu? You don't know a thing!"

" For some who is a Shaolin monk, your kung-fu is pretty lousy!"

" Heh. You're kung-fu is useless against me!"

Yep! Just like that!

"The art of fighting without fighting!" [beat] "wheeeeeeee" (kills everything)

I have a huge soft spot for that sorta thing (and wuxia too. There's a plenty wuxia-esque swordsman class in OA, amirite?

All good!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;730649Kind of.  I always envisioned OA martial arts as classic kung-fu movies. Mysterious masters with mystical styles that taught feats such as ironskin, the eagle claw and so forth.

" Who in the hell teaches you kung-fu? You don't know a thing!"

" For some who is a Shaolin monk, your kung-fu is pretty lousy!"

" Heh. You're kung-fu is useless against me!"

That was actually the intent.  Not to mirror "real" martial arts, but to emulate kung fu movies.

Now before someone says Gary was all for the disassociated wonder powers that ended up being 4e, I think it's fair to say that with martial arts in OA, it was very much a "time and a place for that stuff" with Gary.  I don't know for sure, obviously, but I have a good feeling that all the gonzo flying squirrel stuff in OA was meant to stay in Kara Tur and not replace the "core" D&D, if that makes sense.  I.e., I'm sure he didn't intend everyone to replace their current PHB monks with OA versions (the Dragon magazine monk was better anyway, but I digress), or to have parties full of kensai and shape shifting whatever the heck that race was.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;730662That was actually the intent.  Not to mirror "real" martial arts, but to emulate kung fu movies.

Now before someone says Gary was all for the disassociated wonder powers that ended up being 4e, I think it's fair to say that with martial arts in OA, it was very much a "time and a place for that stuff" with Gary.  I don't know for sure, obviously, but I have a good feeling that all the gonzo flying squirrel stuff in OA was meant to stay in Kara Tur and not replace the "core" D&D, if that makes sense.  I.e., I'm sure he didn't intend everyone to replace their current PHB monks with OA versions (the Dragon magazine monk was better anyway, but I digress), or to have parties full of kensai and shape shifting whatever the heck that race was.

I can't stand 4E aedu, but kung fu rpgs are the one place where i am cool with powers of that sort because it really fits how things work in kung fu movies. A lot of the kung fu techniques in these films are powers that get called out, and i thini it fits. So what you say here about a time and place for certain approaches makes total sense to me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;730680I can't stand 4E aedu, but kung fu rpgs are the one place where i am cool with powers of that sort because it really fits how things work in kung fu movies. A lot of the kung fu techniques in these films are powers that get called out, and i thini it fits. So what you say here about a time and place for certain approaches makes total sense to me.

I think it does.  Especially with a module like Expedition to Barrier Peaks.  Clearly Gary was all for experimenting with other genres into the D&D mechanics, but they were just that: experiments or one-offs because the idea sounded fun, not a replacement for the core D&D game.

Rules that I do not like become totally cool if I accidentally like them in one instance (preferably during my teen years) whereupon I shall declare them an exception and thus totally cool to still like today in that one instance!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;730759Rules that I do not like become totally cool if I accidentally like them in one instance (preferably during my teen years) whereupon I shall declare them an exception and thus totally cool to still like today in that one instance!!!

I never really got into OA in my teens. I have just always felt some of the more weebo stuff fits certain genres. For standard D&D I expect certain things, for variations I expect something different. For example, normally I hate fast heal rates like you have with HS or the HD mechanic in next. Doesn't fit my standard D&D campaign. But when I ran wuxia 3E I used something like HD that healed you every hour and explained it as Qi.

Quote from: Spinachcat;730759Rules that I do not like become totally cool if I accidentally like them in one instance (preferably during my teen years) whereupon I shall declare them an exception and thus totally cool to still like today in that one instance!!!

I enjoyed OA back in the day as an occasional break into the gonzo style.  That doesn't mean I want that gonzo style anywhere near the core rules of D&D.  Just like playing EtoBP was a cool side adventure, but I don't want laser guns anywhere near my core D&D.

I played almost every game known to gamers, some good some bad.  It all depends on the games theme and the mechanics too a degree if I enjoy a game and who is the GM at the time.  But all in all I will play any game except a LAARP.  I never seen the point in bashing a game or the people that play it, hell someday I might meet that person I bashed their game at a con and I might end up playing in a game with them and enjoy it, and look like an ass and that's bad karma.

Quote from: flyingcircus;730800I played almost every game known to gamers . . .

O RLY?

4e is D&D. 4e is what D&D had been claiming to be for 25 years and then cruelly disappointing the people who tried playing it who wanted to play the game that was promised.

This isn't edition warring. No sir.

Quote from: One Horse Town;7309284e is D&D. 4e is what D&D had been claiming to be for 25 years and then cruelly disappointing the people who tried playing it who wanted to play the game that was promised.

This isn't edition warring. No sir.

Sounds like something outta TBP.

Quote from: One Horse Town;7309284e is D&D. 4e is what D&D had been claiming to be for 25 years and then cruelly disappointing the people who tried playing it who wanted to play the game that was promised.

This isn't edition warring. No sir.

Who said this?

there seriously needs to be like, a reverse grogs.txt for quotes like this. Like all those Twitter _TXT accounts.