I also think that most games to a crappy job of creating engaging 'religions' and working on the effects of faith.
Pantheons, etc, Patron deities, gods who involve themselves in the every day world...eeeecchhhh.....

"And as with any institution run by mortals yet fueled by the passion of belief, players in Celtricia find sects, cults, and power-bases in a state of growth, change, or upheaval, as often as in a stable state.  In Argus, the Vernadalian worship takes the form of the Church of the Serpent Queen, while in Igbar the Serpent Queen cult has been banished and repudiated, replaced by the Church of the Green Mother.  The different foci and different morality systems of these related groups creates a conflict more bitter than a typical rival."

Quote from: LordVreeg;728113I also think that most games to a crappy job of creating engaging 'religions' and working on the effects of faith.
Pantheons, etc, Patron deities, gods who involve themselves in the every day world...eeeecchhhh.....

"And as with any institution run by mortals yet fueled by the passion of belief, players in Celtricia find sects, cults, and power-bases in a state of growth, change, or upheaval, as often as in a stable state.  In Argus, the Vernadalian worship takes the form of the Church of the Serpent Queen, while in Igbar the Serpent Queen cult has been banished and repudiated, replaced by the Church of the Green Mother.  The different foci and different morality systems of these related groups creates a conflict more bitter than a typical rival."

I think that part of that problem is due to us being raised in a monotheistic environment --mostly Christian-- so while we understand the classic polytheistic pantheon, actually internalizing what its like to worship a pantheon is quite a bit different.

That's always been a stretch to the imagination when talking about D&D in particular, with a Cleric that is rooted partly in the holy hunter Van Helsing type of character, and partly in the tradition of the crusades and heroic priestly figures like Odo of Bayeux.

Ernie was pretty clear to me from the start that low level clerical spells are a matter of faith and personal dedication, whereas true divine power, as in, being a channel for the higher powers beyond the reach of the world, is something you can only attain at very high levels. The way that works in the Hobby Shop Dungeon campaign is that you have patron deities, which might be figures of legend, historical heroes and the like, which are worshiped by different folk and are treated differently whether you are Gaelish or Frankh or Iyathari or whatnot. These are not actual "gods", but really legendary/mythical patrons people feel a cultural devotion and attachment to. Imagine the devotion one might feel towards heroic figures like Roland, or Arthur in our world, or if Elric after destroying the Young Kingdoms and giving birth to the new world was somewhat remembered and worshiped as a composite figure by the new generation of men there. There is a point in your evolution as a cleric where you might learn this truth and part of the challenge in becoming a high priest is to sublimate this understanding of the world in order to connect with the higher powers and become a conduit of their will in the world. This is not easily achieved.

To the OP: forget about D&D per se for the moment.

Do you have an interest in history and mythology?

In history, religions have been among the most powerful social phenomena affecting everything from daily life to royal succession and wars. Religious institutions and their hierarchies have had enormous social and political influence. All without any real supernatural powers or miracles as far as you are likely to believe. Would you have a problem with such religions being in your game?

In myth, gods often appear to mortals and do...stuff...or they answer mortals' requests for help. Rarely if ever in "real myth" do you see someone whose relationship to their god lets them cure light wounds 1/day, but read the Iliad or the Old Testament and you've got divine effects all over the place. Would you have a problem with that?

Sounds to me like you should try this new thing I heard about, called role - playing. Because seriously, for me (an atheist as well) this sounds like Fuckyoumomanddad Atheism 101 problem, sorry. In a lot of fantasy settings, there isn't belief as we know it, because existence of gods is made certain by their divine presence, and divine magic of priests. And even without such reassurances, unless the world has advanced enough knowledge of nature phenomena (and they aren't caused by invisible gods, of course), you'll still have religions develop, to explain those natural phenomena. The best I'd allow you to do in my games'd be to have some guy with a grudge against gods, refusing to bow down to any rather than deny their existence. And I'd be sure to strip any Cleric PC who'd heal you of their powers, if any.

Quote from: Arminius;728120To the OP: forget about D&D per se for the moment.

Do you have an interest in history and mythology?

In history, religions have been among the most powerful social phenomena affecting everything from daily life to royal succession and wars. Religious institutions and their hierarchies have had enormous social and political influence. All without any real supernatural powers or miracles as far as you are likely to believe. Would you have a problem with such religions being in your game?

In myth, gods often appear to mortals and do...stuff...or they answer mortals' requests for help. Rarely if ever in "real myth" do you see someone whose relationship to their god lets them cure light wounds 1/day, but read the Iliad or the Old Testament and you've got divine effects all over the place. Would you have a problem with that?

Yeah. Modernistic approach to religion makes me grind my teeth more in cases of medievalesque fantasy even more than those lesbian single mom drow pirates who are not buying into the Drow concept of matriarchal society, maaaan.

Especially if you realise that adventurers are very much the types, to whom the "no atheists in foxholes" apply. I have no problem pretending that sacrificing a goat on the altar of God of War will grant me luck in battle any more than pretending to be a guy who, by our standards, would be a mass - murdering thug.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;728115I think that part of that problem is due to us being raised in a monotheistic environment --mostly Christian-- so while we understand the classic polytheistic pantheon, actually internalizing what its like to worship a pantheon is quite a bit different.

Part of this is the knowability/mystery dichotomy.

in too many games, the will and mind of the 'gods' is too well known and assumed.  I think that attitude, and the 'plug and play' nature of books like Deities and Demigods, actually got in the way of creating more actualized settings.

Consider that the default, quasi-medieval setting would actually have the monotheistic setting actually in the process of absorbing the pagan beliefs of the area...this sounds like a far more engaging game than the ones I played trying to stick temples of Hermes and Asmodeus next to each other...

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;728089Not sure if the title reflects what I am about to type. Let's see.

I know RPGs are make-believe, fantasy, sci-fi, horror and everything in between but there is something I am not comfortable with: Gods. Or something about them.

That is the nice thing about sci-fi, is that religion is usually never touched upon. In my Traveller 1323 campaign, I had the black ships, and a transdroyneist horror (like skitters from Falling Skies), and they hated people moving into the frontier because they felt those people were coming from the sphere of "grandfather". Grandfather being an ancient droyne of godlike power, but to them, totally evil, their ancestors being on the losing side of a civil war. So they did in fact have a religion, no afterlife or rituals, but that God was real, God was evil, and to try to fanatically resist God and "God's people", moving into their territory.

Get over it, it's just pretend.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728121Sounds to me like you should try this new thing I heard about, called role - playing. Because seriously, for me (an atheist as well) this sounds like Fuckyoumomanddad Atheism 101 problem, sorry.

Yep.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728121Yeah. Modernistic approach to religion makes me grind my teeth

Don't get me wrong; I'm not dumping on the OP, I'm trying to figure out where he's coming from. Also, not to dump on D&D but if that's the only approach to fantasy religions that you've seen (and I would include "the way a lot of DMs fill in the cracks in D&D" as part of that), then other games might provide some perspective.

Also, the portrayal of religion in Middle Earth is about the lightest, near-atheistic (or you might say modern) you'll find in almost any fantasy. I mean very little that you see in the books has any of the qualities of real religion: ritual, faith, priests, sacrifices, a sense of personal relationship to a god or gods, let alone a sense of divine patronage. You can find bits and pieces but that's all. Nobody seems to mind much when Tolkien does it.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;728128Get over it, it's just pretend.

Okay, now I have a moment to expand on this.

Fact is, I get it. There's no amount of "it's just pretend" that makes rape or child abuse acceptable to me in a game, and while I don't say no to slavery or torture, I will think you're a fucking sheet-shitter for lovingly lingering over them should they come up in actual play.

I'm an athiest, yet I like spending time thinking about and roleplaying religion and religious characters, largely because it is so removed from my own experience. I can understand why it might not appeal to others.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;728095Perhaps I am in a minority: People (person?) who are not comfortable playing the role of a character that has faith. I never expected to find something like that to be an issue.

I read your OP as you just not engaging with D&D-style religeon.

But here you say you're not comfortable with playing someone of faith, because you're not a person of faith.

Now, I can get not wanting to play a Christian because you just don't get Christianity in real life.

I can also get not wanting to play a D&D Cleric because D&D religeon lacks verisimilitude. D&D clerics are about an exchange, their prayers for powers; pretty much the antithesis of faith. I'm not keen but as others have pointed out, it depends on your perspective of what the gods are, and hey, it's a game.

I can't really get not having real-world faith getting in the way of playing someone who's basically a wizard who gets their power from an otherworldly benefactor (who likes to mess with mortals and send them on quests).

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;728095So with that in mind, perhaps it is less to do with my personal feelings toward religion and more to do with how the GM has framed the game?

Going back to your OP

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;728089In a previous game we had to escort a cleric to an opposing king's palace where he then started cursing the king and his people with locusts, frogs, rains of blood etc (we were playing in a fantasy-Egypt. WHY the GM had to bring Moses into it I don't know). Up until that point I was quite happy. But the whole "God(s) sent me" thing didn't really float my boat (or reed basket, depending). I actually engaged less with the game at that point.

What it really sounds like is the game jumped the shark at the point the curses began, which is a totally different reason not to engage with that game. So I'd (a) check you really mean uncomfortable about faith and (b) check you're not pinning the "blame" on the ouvert display of divine power, when you've actually got a different and more fundamental reason why you didn't like that game.

Quote from: LordVreeg;728122Part of this is the knowability/mystery dichotomy.

in too many games, the will and mind of the 'gods' is too well known and assumed.  I think that attitude, and the 'plug and play' nature of books like Deities and Demigods, actually got in the way of creating more actualized settings.

Consider that the default, quasi-medieval setting would actually have the monotheistic setting actually in the process of absorbing the pagan beliefs of the area...this sounds like a far more engaging game than the ones I played trying to stick temples of Hermes and Asmodeus next to each other...

From a logical standpoint, you see people who are devotees of a particular god[dess] in a pantheon, even while acknowledging the entire pantheon.  In game terms, that's how we kind of hand-wave a polytheistic environment into a pseudo-monotheistic one.

Given how obfuscating "the gods' will" can be from a historical perspective (just look at the Oracle at Delphi for a good example of that), that very fuzziness is something that could be incorporated into a game fairly easily.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;728115I think that part of that problem is due to us being raised in a monotheistic environment --mostly Christian-- so while we understand the classic polytheistic pantheon, actually internalizing what its like to worship a pantheon is quite a bit different.

Frankly I'm inclined to run D&D as monotheistic deism in the future for this reason. Most of my players aren't interested in internalizing and performing alternate spiritualities to play in an anarchic fantasy sandbox, so let's just skip to the chase.

They're really into the Protestant/Catholic conflict that has become central to my current 7th Sea campaign though, largely because it's so accessible. To date this is the only campaign I've run where religion became a central theme through player choice rather than DM insertion.

I major in comparative religion and I've never really cared about inventing religions for my settings, mostly because it takes way too much effort, and unless you put that effort in, it probably turns to "and here's 20 gods of the pantheon that have weird names."

Occasionally I have an idea and run with it, for instance in my current project there's a ton of folk religiosity that's about cats since they're seen as souls of the house, Loviatar's in because she's got a cool name and in a setting where a history of plague is a big deal, why not have a goddess of disease. And then there's Russian Orthodox Christianity evolved into a state cult mostly concerned with signs and portents.