Not sure if the title reflects what I am about to type. Let's see.

I know RPGs are make-believe, fantasy, sci-fi, horror and everything in between but there is something I am not comfortable with: Gods. Or something about them.

I am happy playing pretend with anything and everything else. Super heroes, Zero to Heroes, Investigators, Crazies. I mean, Cthulhu gets a green card on this one by virtue of essentially being a fucking big alien. Kult and the Demiurge and Sephirot I can handle. Again, there is a disconnect between being a god and being a creature with immense power. Both of those we never really played with magic in-party, just crazy "otherness" happening around.

But D&D-esque gods, clerics, temples, churches.... I just can't do it. I am starting in a game as a player and a major part of this is: "you are on a journey to a temple, because you were called/chosen by your god, shit happens in between being called and you getting there, and we are starting just after said shit hit fan."

You can, I am sure, enjoy doing these things. I am not stopping you enjoying your deities, clerics, powers and all the rest of it. Go roll those dice in the name of the lord(s). But the whole thing is a bit odd for me.

In a previous game we had to escort a cleric to an opposing king's palace where he then started cursing the king and his people with locusts, frogs, rains of blood etc (we were playing in a fantasy-Egypt. WHY the GM had to bring Moses into it I don't know). Up until that point I was quite happy. But the whole "God(s) sent me" thing didn't really float my boat (or reed basket, depending). I actually engaged less with the game at that point. :jaw-dropping:

The thing is, I have no faith. I don't even play pretend when my wife runs off to the temple at new year, or whenever she feels it necessary. I don't DO organised religion. I have no faith or belief in higher powers, and I just cannot disconnect the little extra bit for it to all sit comfortably. I am about as spiritual as a used nappy (diaper for American readers).

Really weird I know. People are probably reading this going "OMGWTFBBQ. Get over it, it's just pretend".

So yeah. No gods please. I don't want to play games with gods in (maybe Lords of Olympus is different? ). The same way I don't want to play games with vampires or werewolves, but for different reasons.

I'm Atheist myself, but I do attend stuff like weddings and funerals.

I have no beef with D&D religions myself, I think they can be quite fun, but well, there's certain weird stuff you just have to take in stride. I do prefer 2e's take on things, mind.

I am having a bit of trouble discerning what, exactly, is your beef with in-game religion. Is it the fact that your party's quest-giving patron is a deity, or a priest?

In your ideal fantasy game, how would you like religion to be handled?

I prefer D&D religeon on player-side to be monotheistic and poorly defined, and therefore open to human intepretation. That's how I see the LotFP Cleric=Lawful dogma. I don't care for the D&D laundry list of deities any more than I care for the Vampire laundry list of clans.

The point about worship is faith, and so religeous PCs should have faith. They don't (or should not) speak directly to their god; much of what they do could be viewed cynically as being manipulated by other humans, and yet they choose to live by a code and strive to be holy, maybe even in the full knowledge that their Church masters are less than holy. That's a cool roleplaying challenge.

So, yeah, "my god sent me on this quest" should be "my church sent me". Or if it's really "my god" then there should be some suggestion of mental illness. Make it ambiguous. Otherwise the PC is just being led by the nose by a superbeing. Boring.

That's the thing. I am really not sure. Like ENT, I attend weddings and funerals. That is because of the people, not the religion issue.

As for gaming. Maybe it's the manner in which it is sometimes foregrounded? With this particular upcoming campaign it feels very 'present' and I am just not in that place mentally. Maybe?

Most of the time I want to roll magic users and clerics into one. This taps into the "real world" magic threads that have been floating around. Maybe they should be? It was probably a design decision/accident/source material issue that had arcane and faith magic split. Looking at how the occult and magical traditions developed in the West I am surprised that the link between magic-user and priest isn't stronger (some games probably do not have the distinction between classes that D&D has).

This isn't some crusade (not perhaps the best word?) against religion or faith. I don't really care what other people do, as long as it doesn't have too much of a negative impact on me.

Perhaps I am in a minority: People (person?) who are not comfortable playing the role of a character that has faith. I never expected to find something like that to be an issue.

Quote from: smiorgan;728094The point about worship is faith, and so religious PCs should have faith. They don't (or should not) speak directly to their god; much of what they do could be viewed cynically as being manipulated by other humans, and yet they choose to live by a code and strive to be holy, maybe even in the full knowledge that their Church masters are less than holy. That's a cool roleplaying challenge.

So, yeah, "my god sent me on this quest" should be "my church sent me". Or if it's really "my god" then there should be some suggestion of mental illness. Make it ambiguous. Otherwise the PC is just being led by the nose by a superbeing. Boring.

Perhaps this is the issue? "You were chosen/had a vision/macguffin". Yes it is a starting point for something that could go many different directions. But it feels too much like a personal relationship with the divine (alien territory).

So with that in mind, perhaps it is less to do with my personal feelings toward religion and more to do with how the GM has framed the game?

Quote from: smiorgan;728094The point about worship is faith, and so religious PCs should have faith. They don't (or should not) speak directly to their god; much of what they do could be viewed cynically as being manipulated by other humans, and yet they choose to live by a code and strive to be holy, maybe even in the full knowledge that their Church masters are less than holy. That's a cool roleplaying challenge.

So, yeah, "my god sent me on this quest" should be "my church sent me". Or if it's really "my god" then there should be some suggestion of mental illness. Make it ambiguous. Otherwise the PC is just being led by the nose by a superbeing. Boring.

Perhaps this is the issue? "You were chosen/had a vision/macguffin". Yes it is a starting point for something that could go many different directions. But it feels too much like a personal relationship with the divine (alien territory).

Sounds like you're more anti-spiritual than un-spiritual, or anti-religious maybe. You seem to dislike the whole trope? This seems quite common among American atheists at least, the whole "Get your God out of this, you're making me sick!" thing. I was raised atheist myself but I haven't seen much of this attitude in the UK. I think they have it in France a bit.

I like gods not just because they're weird but because their domain is so large that, properly employed, they can make everything else weird.

Like: I can pick up any old module TSR published and there's goblins and orcs and Yuan Ti and clerics.

But if I decide, early on, that the goblins have a god to whom anything green is sacred and that the Yuan ti's skins are all sacred texts that can be read to explicate their god, suddenly that ordinary TSR module--which was inert a second ago--is a minefield of adventure seeds.

As in anything TSR, WOTC, or anybody else pumps out that has these stock elements.

By taking the idea of gods and their dominions and sects seriously, generic content can turn from checkers to chess in seconds.

Faith in a game world however--assuming the typical D&D world--is not faith in what you can't see of feel, but more like devotion or fealty.

In other words, just see worship of the pantheon and its gods by the masses as a form of vassaldom or the acceptance of a spiritual kingdom, with the priests being the equivalent of knights or gentry.  When you think about it that way, it makes a lot more sense.

I've always been kind of uncomfortable with faith-based PCs as well. Until recently I'd never played a cleric.
A lot of it might be that gods in most RPGs I've played have just been another stat as far as players are concerned, a justification for the power the cleric is wielding but beyond that not of much import... interchangeable.
Also, no matter who their god is the cleric just about always ends up getting played as christian... and to focus on healing. He's really only there for the heals.
Just seems bland... I'd rather have some other means of healing, surgeons and anatomists with a bit of alchemy. No religion necessary.

Clerics and gods are in the same category as wizards & magic. Its just different flavor for extraordinary stuff. The gods are just batteries for certain types of power.

I can understand not liking cleric type characters or wanting to play them, but a fantasy game with zero religious references would be a bit strange.

Nothing wrong or out of the ordinary here. I don't like playing in "evil" games where the PCs are bad guys, because it goes against my core. Even though it's just playing pretend, it's not enjoyable. So I can understand that roleplaying someone with religious beliefs may not be enjoyable for you.

A possible solution would be to have a chat with your DM and get the two of you on the same page. Let him know that you will be playing a character that doesn't worship divine beings, and won't take the bait for any quests that religious figures send you on. Still you are left with the problem that you're playing in the DM's sandbox where gods are real.

Your other option is to only play in settings where the divine doesn't play a role.

I can certainly understand why the whole thing would be off-putting to you, and it may require some work to find a group willing to play in a setting that's more to your taste.

Just think of fantasy deities as ultra powerful "aliens"/beings with their own agenda and treat accordingly.

Basically you are Captain Kirk and there are computer gods all around you. Some benign, some indifferent, and some malevolent.

What do you do?

Sounds to me like there's a part of your feelings coming from being irked about the "chosen one" trope, or the idea that some entirely DM-controlled force outside the campaign would basically orchestrate things without your character having any impact on these elements, than the actual idea of religion. Hence, Cthulhu's cool, because he's a big alien, and at least if you take a ship to its flank, or a nuclear weapon for that matter, it MIGHT work, temporarily at least.

Would that be correct, BarefootGaijin?

As an aside many live action games, including the one I am involved in avoid religion in our campaigns. Even  missing a common tropes  we manage to make decent adventures without it.

In their place there are are philosophies, "powers", and very powerful beings that are just that. For example Life, Chaos, Nature, etc. In place of worship there are philosophies and codes.