Oh agreed on Gamma World D&D 4e! That game is terrific.

Quote from: Marleycat;705950I assume so but in what way? Gridless? More flexibility in the ADEU system? Or the magic system itself? Or does it quit trying to make everyone run said scheme?

I like the 4e gamma world and 13tha age betetr than 4e dnd because:

I prefer rules lite; both are 'simpler' and go from level 1 to 10, not 1 to 30.
Easier to go gridless if you want.
Less books to aqquire and you don't need DDI (Kinda need it for 4e dnd)
The magic system in 13th age feels closer to oldschool dnd than 4e does.

Its not all sunshine and roses though.
!3th age keeps those godawful healing surges.
Gamma world has a bit too much 'gonzo'

But I still like both better than 4e dnd.

Quote from: tanstaafl48;705642The actual rules for play are contained in PHB1 or the first essentials book (Heroes of the Fallen Lands? Something like that). Titles aside, PHB 2 and 3 are really splatbooks with new classes/races; they don't have the core rules in them

PHB 2 is core.  WOTC intentionally split core concepts between PHB 1 and PHB 2.  Which is why we got the Barbarian, Bard, Sorcerer, and Druid int he PHB 2.  Not to mention the Gnome as a race.

I know lots of groups tried to play "core only" for 4e, but that "core only" always seemed to include the PHB 2 in addition to PHB 1.  For the reasons that so much was held back until PHB 2.

So I like the lists being tossed out, but some of them are way too long.

I am not trying to run the game.  I just want to grok it.  I agree that crippleware is bad, because  I don't want to come to understand something that doesn't apply to the vast majority of 4e games.

Why recommend the MM, for example?  Is there rules content in there?

Quote from: Mistwell;706036PHB 2 is core.

Other than new races/classes, what Core RULES were in PHB2 that weren't in the PHB?

Quote from: mcbobbo;706067I am not trying to run the game.  I just want to grok it.  I agree that crippleware is bad, because  I don't want to come to understand something that doesn't apply to the vast majority of 4e games.

As said above, PHB1 is all you need.

I would also recommend the DMG1 as it is much more of an integral reference for the DM in 4e than previous editions. But only do so, if the PHB1 interests you enough to read it.

Quote from: Mistwell;706036PHB 2 is core.  WOTC intentionally split core concepts between PHB 1 and PHB 2.  Which is why we got the Barbarian, Bard, Sorcerer, and Druid int he PHB 2.  Not to mention the Gnome as a race.

This is really a matter of opinion. IMO the PHB1 for 4e was as replayable as written as any other PHB for a previous edition of D&D. For example, I don't consider Barbarian, Bard, or Sorcerer to be core to D&D (but then again I come from B/X and 1e roots).

Quote from: Arduin;706069Other than new races/classes, what Core RULES were in PHB2 that weren't in the PHB?

For a book mostly composed of races and classes, I am not sure "other than" is a good standard.  But yeah, it's those things.

If he just wants to read how the game in general works, either PHB 1, or one of the two Essentials player books.  That's all you need.

Quote from: Skywalker;706123This is really a matter of opinion. IMO the PHB1 for 4e was as replayable as written as any other PHB for a previous edition of D&D. For example, I don't consider Barbarian, Bard, or Sorcerer to be core to D&D (but then again I come from B/X and 1e roots).

What about Druids and gnomes and half-orcs?

Quote from: Mistwell;706145What about Druids and gnomes and half-orcs?

There absence was notable but it didn't make the PHB for 4e incomplete or less playable than any previous edition of D&D from the one book (or the PHB2 a "core" book) IMO. Again that might be because I played many editions of D&D, so I am used to different race and class choices in each version of D&D.

If one of the 4 ever-present classes* or races had been absent, or if there had been a marked drop in the number of race/class options, then it might be a different story. But neither was the case with the PHB.

*Yeah, yeah, thieves weren't in OD&D

Quote from: Marleycat;705939Interesting, why do you say that?

As Skywalker said, they are both refinements of 4e. Gamma World keeps the grid combat so you get lots of tactical fun, but the game is deadlier and chargen is faster. Weapon damage is higher so combat is faster as well. Player empowerment in chargen to "reskin" the various powers results in fascinating, albeit gonzo characters.

But on the gonzo, that's all about the GM and player definition of the setting. You can do Squidchicken with Lazer Eyeballs or not. A GM at our FLGS Game Day runs a Fallout/Mad Max-ish GW where the PCs are not bizarro mutants and you have to "humanize" your concept of your powers. And that's easier with some powers than others.

13th Age takes the fantasy superhero aspect of 4e and amps it up to Exalted, but replaces the awkward challenge system with a much more free form, more narrative concept that we saw during the 4e playtests.
Additionally, 13th Age appears to made combat faster via eliminating the grid and increasing PC damage and PC "to hit" chances with their escalation die. Also, 13th Age apparently has done a better job of making sure that each of the classes has its own playstyle.
 
So while the PHB 1e from 4e would do a great job teaching the core of 4e, I don't believe that it delivers a game experience as good as GW or 13th Age. Akin to how I feel that True20 delivers a better D20 experience than 3.5.

If you're looking to get a feel for the system, OP, the Compendium isn't ideal as a tutorial text. But it's a great resource for detailed treatments of individual rules. I would note that the 3.5 edition of the rules compendium is a similarly excellent overview of the mechanics of that system.

If you just want to get a quick sense of how to play the game, skip the big books and grab the keep on the shadowfell rules. They are extremely compact. They are available free of charge from wizards. They don't include character creation, but if you just want to understand the mechanics that doesn't make any difference. And you can see what a terrible adventure wizards began the line with, and what a huge impact that had on the reputation of the product.

Quote from: Mistwell;706143For a book mostly composed of races and classes, I am not sure "other than" is a good standard.  But yeah, it's those things.

If he just wants to read how the game in general works, either PHB 1, or one of the two Essentials player books.  That's all you need.

That was the point.  Books that are just new races & classes are "splat books".  When they labeled it "PHB 2"  it was a inaccurate title (done to boost sales no doubt).  PHB's, by long established custom, contain the CORE rules of an RPG that the players need to know.

Quote from: Arduin;706397That was the point.  Books that are just new races & classes are "splat books".  When they labeled it "PHB 2"  it was a inaccurate title (done to boost sales no doubt).  PHB's, by long established custom, contain the CORE rules of an RPG that the players need to know.

And in my opinion, there are races and classes which are the core rules.  I do not think "how do you determine if you hit something with your sword" to be the only kind of core rule.  The races and classes are not just optional modules attached to the game, they are a core part of the game, and defining elements of what makes D&D, D&D.  


Certain specific races and classes are, in my opinion, key core components of the game.  You can play the game without them, but then you can play the game without ever trying to hit something with your sword. Ability to play the game without a particular rule isn't the criteria for determining whether or not it is core - it's how often people tend to use those rules in typical games I think that is more relevant.  And given that criteria, I think some of the races and classes in PHB 2 are definitely core.

Indeed, you wouldn't even need the monster manual provided you use monster creation rules in a DMG.  And you don't much "need" the DMG for 4e, as almost all rules for playing are in the PHB.  And yet, the MM and DMG are counted as "core".  That's silly to me - the PHB2 contained core things for the game.

Quote from: Mistwell;706438And in my opinion, there are races and classes which are the core rules.

Not really relevant.  The company (WotC) decided that they weren't.  Thus, they left them out of the PHB and put them as an OPTION for the GM in a splat book...