Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014People who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.

The horror genre allows for expansion, not just replacement. I don't think all horror movies now are gross either. For example, Ringu /The Ring or Paranormal Activity are mostly "gross free".

Most of the gross out horror movies you find today have a plot nugget that really don't require it to be gross either. They are gross because they are effects movies that have to top each other technically for lack of an original script or situation.

This reminds me about when the "revised" Exorcist was released in theaters several years ago - I had gotten a couple of early screening tickets and went to a packed pre-release. There were plenty of people in the audience who were late teens - 20s range, and the chatter around me gave me the impression that they weren't expecting anything particularly scary. The new material added wasn't particularly gross, but it was quite effective.

I think that, like all things, it depends on your audience and how they feel about the subject matter.  Ravenloft is always going to be relevant to those who enjoy that genre and those who get introduced to it.  As with any setting, some will love it and some will hate it.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014Is Ravenloft relevant anymore?
 I cannot image an expy of the Hewitt Family (from TCM) or Pinhead or the girl crawling out of the well with their own Ravenloft domains.

So, given this sea-change, is Ravenloft even relevant anymore as a horror setting? And I ask this as someone who liked the classic setting.

Hmm.

First, I can easily see Samara (The Ring) as a lord of Ravenloft, or as a very nasty monster in a larger realm. A secluded, forgotten well and a cursed grimoire with a full page illustration she can come crawling out of is all you need. The PCs finding a water-logged corpse in a landlocked inn sounds like an adventure hook to me. The freaks from TCM aren't really gothic, but it wouldn't be that hard to recast them as a family of degenerate ghouls somewhere in the hills of a less cosmopolitan realm, and not everything in Ravenloft is "classic" gothic to begin with.

Second, I'd say Ravenloft has managed to remain relevant by virtue of the fact the style of horror it most strongly evokes hadn't been trendy in decades. Unlike something like Vampire 1st edition, Ravenloft didn't draw from what was popular at the time. Instead they designed it around those things which would either be called classic or cliche, depending on your tastes. That makes it comparatively resistant to current trends. The classics fall in and out of favor, but the drops and rises are smaller compared to the new hotness.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703296In any event, I feel Ravenloft will need some adjustment to remain a market force, something purchased by people other than hardcore existing fans. However, such things do not always go well.

I am not sure it needs to be a market force, or that this is likely to be a major decision point right now.  I do note that one advantage of releasing the old PDFs of TSR era games is that WotC now has some really kick-ass data on what old setting still have pull on players in the current eras.

One of the cool things about Ravenloft is that it's very landscape is a composite of other lands brought together by the Dark Powers, so bits and pieces can be added to it as desired.  Even though as a whole Ravenloft is a very classic Gothic horror setting there are bits that draw on different horror subgenre and traditions.  Bluetspur is Lovecraftian, the Amber Wastes have an Arabian/Egyptian horror thing going on, Dementlieu is very "Urban Gothic," Odiare has a Children of the Corn quality (and also a little Chucky), etc.  So, in a sense, it'd be very easy to graft on new Domains that draw on more recent horror trends like J-Horror, splatterpunk, etc.

From a marketing and audience perspective, I doubt it's so much a case of Ravenloft being relevant as Fantasy being much more relevant.

In the 90s it made sense for to do a horror themed version of D&D. Mainstream fantasy was seen as somewhat lame and nerdy, while Horror themed stuff was cool.

Now it's almost the opposite.  Traditional horror seems somewhat tacky and associated with twilight and halloween costumes while fantasy has very much become a mainstream thing.

Of course the reality is that either way there's not going to be a large new influx of gamers any time soon no matter what kinds of settings are used, so the point is largely moot anyway.

If it's done poorly, no.  If it's done well, yes.  If it's chasing a trend, definitely not.

Quote from: Steerpike;703317One of the cool things about Ravenloft is that it's very landscape is a composite of other lands brought together by the Dark Powers, so bits and pieces can be added to it as desired.  Even though as a whole Ravenloft is a very classic Gothic horror setting there are bits that draw on different horror subgenre and traditions.  Bluetspur is Lovecraftian, the Amber Wastes have an Arabian/Egyptian horror thing going on, Dementlieu is very "Urban Gothic," Odiare has a Children of the Corn quality (and also a little Chucky), etc.  So, in a sense, it'd be very easy to graft on new Domains that draw on more recent horror trends like J-Horror, splatterpunk, etc.

Just a thought but it might be interesting to incorporate a time travel element too, where there are future domains and past domains.

I've not played a lot of Ravenloft, but it seems to me that the success of the original Dracula (book, play, movies) was rooted in the conflict between the modern (at the time) world of Victorian England -- the pinnacle of civilization and science at the time (or so assumed by the authors) -- and the elemental forces of evil from a time lost in history. The only person who knows how vampires behave and can be bested is a crusty old professor of ancient folklore. To the English and American protagonists he is an unknown force who has first to be believed before he can be bested.

I'm fascinated to see what the new TV show does with Dracula. I watched the premiere last week and while I liked some of it, I'm not altogether sold on it as a well thought out re-take. On the other hand, I am a big fan of the new Sleepy Hollow. Here's a show that is taking its demonology pretty seriously. It may not be canon, but it is enthusiastic, and that goes a long way in my book.

As to films like Saw (1 through 99), I have not watched them nor will I ever. I did make the mistake many years ago of watching a precursor of the slasher genre, Last House on the Left. I can't really classify them as horror stories (except that they are horrible) -- they're more like pornography.

The Ring was fun. I could see a decent horror scenario based on that -- but again, I see the conflict as being between cultural biases rather than all set in a domain where the water witch rules. The struggle is to find out what she is before she can be bested. If she's just the wicked queen then its a story about rebellion, more like Robin Hood than Jonathan Harker.

Quote from: teagan;703899As to films like Saw (1 through 99), I have not watched them nor will I ever. I did make the mistake many years ago of watching a precursor of the slasher genre, Last House on the Left. I can't really classify them as horror stories (except that they are horrible) -- they're more like pornography.

That's not true! Pornography can at least be pleasurable.

Having said that, I watched the first Saw movie and thought it was pretty good, in spite of the fact that slasher flicks (and gore generally) do absolutely nothing for me.

I'm completely biased when it comes to Ravenloft, as it has been one of my favourite settings since it was released. If it ends up being released by WotC under D&DNext I'll be very interested to see what they do with it. I think it can still be quite relevant, but one of the ways to do that is to leave it open to run all sorts of "horror" adventures, without pigeonholing it into pure Gothic, or Hammer-horror, or what-have-you...

I've seen all the Saw films. I'm not sure why, other than the DVDs were a buck.

The first was decent, if a little derivative. The second is about on par with 99% of the horror films Ive seen. Both were violent, but it didn't nauseate me like Hostel and other Torture Porn.

The rest of the Saws were drek. They abandoned the premise that made Jigsaw compelling in the first film altogether, and whoever did the last one had some very obvious "issues with women". None of the Saws were violent in that way that makes me sick to my stomach though, like Last House on the Left or Cannibal Holocaust.

I love horror, but I hate gore, and it frankly pisses me off to watch what is very obviously some director's rage at his exwife/GF/women who won't date him worked out onscreen in some violent revenge fantasy, which is surprisingly common in the genre, especially the "Indy" horror flicks. Just as I really have no interest in rape-revenge flicks, which became a genre unto thselves in the 70s and it seems like there's been at least one attempt a year to reboot that fad since the turn of the century.

Honestly, I miss 80s horror. It was generally fun, didn't take itself too seriously, and there wasn't a need to make the violence "realistic".

I don't mind gore, I even like it when it's done well... serves a purpose in the story... but gore itself just isn't scary. In fact it actively deflates any suspense that has been built up by what's gone before. It seems most effective when it comes out of nowhere, early on... setting up trepidation in the audience that there is worse on the way or establishing that 'this is what the monster does'.
I've never done it but in the past I've thought about starting off a horror game with a player-agent in cahoots to have his PC horribly killed off in the early sessions of the game. As a visual aide to the other players about their own PC's possible fates. I'm not sure what classification of Railroading that comes under.

I don't mind gore when it serves the story/mood. Heck, I saw Hellraiser at the age of 10 and I didn't bat an eye. It's when the director lingers on it, to the point of luridness & combines it with torture (usually of young women) then it just makes me feel sick. It's like Im acutely aware that somewhere, someone is getting off on this.

And no, it's not scary. It's boring. It's like sex scenes in films that go on too long (*cough*watchmen*cough*) I'm like "okay, can we please get back to the plot? That's what I'm here for. I appreciate you showing me new boobs , but lets move along".

Course, I also tend to zone out if car chases go on too long.

Anyways, to return to Ravenloft, its relevance is up to the GM. Genre isn't as important as getting the players invested in the experience. If they believe in the environment you create for them, then genre is meaningless. It's just a tool to help DM's coordinate the mood they want to create.

Are you kidding? Ironic Nostalgia is huge right now.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;704671Are you kidding? Ironic Nostalgia is huge right now.

RPGPundit

I have noticed this with a lot of people younger than me. For example may express interest in an old 80s band i like such as iron maiden or Dio, but their enjoyment of it is purely ironic (they sort of enjoy it at arms length because to them it is an amusing museum piece from the 80s). It took me a while to realize this. I imagine the same thing could happen with D&D or with certain sub genres and settings of rpgs (I could see people who dislike 1E or GURPS playing them mystery science theater style, and certainly people might approach Ravenloft the same way). There can also be the "i can't remember i used to think this was cool" factor.