Is Ravenloft relevant anymore?

I am working on a Halloween episode for my own RPG review show... and Ravenloft, at least classic Ravenloft, is rooted in Gothic literature and the old Universal horror flicks and the Hammer horror movies. These movies were aired on TV late Saturdays and early Sundays in the 1970s and the 1980s. But they are not aired on TV anymore and horror movies and literature have moved in different directions. I like movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Hellraiser and the Ring, but none of them possesses a style like that of the old Universal horror flicks and the Hammer horror movies. I cannot image an expy of the Hewitt Family (from TCM) or Pinhead or the girl crawling out of the well with their own Ravenloft domains. The kind of horror movies which defines the term for the modern generation are movies like Saw, Hostel and even (god help us) Human Centipede. Those flicks do not have a remotely Ravenloft tone or feel to them, but they (and crappy SyFy flicks) define horror expectations from a modern audience.

People who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.

So, given this sea-change, is Ravenloft even relevant anymore as a horror setting? And I ask this as someone who liked the classic setting.

Classic iterations never get old, even if they fall out of fashion. All art form genres go through a certain life cycle of establishment > stasis > deconstruction > reconstruction. Classic Gothic horror still holds all the potency as it did, perhaps more so if the audience is new to it. It's really just waiting for the next big reconstruction of the genre to find its way back into favour.

I'd preface a game with directing new players to check out The Fearless Vampire Killers, Captain Chronos, Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow, maybe The Devil's Backbone.

I think Saw and Hostel were the short-lived fad... meanwhile fairytales and costume dramas continue to appeal to wide audiences. Kids I know are quite aware of old legends and mythology... which are the same things Universal and Hammer drew from.

Quite often the younger generation will re-discover the classics and some will find that they offer far more than the current gore films that are passed off as horror.

I don't think it ever was.  Indeed I've always wondered why they gave Strahd the same skin colour as a certain muppet.  Chill did Hammer horror a couple years earlier IRRC.  But the Hollywood presentation of Dracula and Frankenstien mainly existed in media as comedy and parody by the time Ravenloft came along.

I mean, for TSR the original Ravenloft module was a sea change that lead to Dragonlance and more story oriented modules.

But relevant?  Stoker's novel still has some relevance at any rate.

Quote from: David Johansen;703039I don't think it ever was.  Indeed I've always wondered why they gave Strahd the same skin colour as a certain muppet.  Chill did Hammer horror a couple years earlier IRRC.  But the Hollywood presentation of Dracula and Frankenstien mainly existed in media as comedy and parody by the time Ravenloft came along.

I mean, for TSR the original Ravenloft module was a sea change that lead to Dragonlance and more story oriented modules.

But relevant?  Stoker's novel still has some relevance at any rate.

Hammers Dracula series with Lee and Cushing may have been an inspiration too. Dynamic sometimes action oriented tales while still cleaving somewhat to the source. And the last of those came out in 73. Around the early or mid 80s they saw a resurgence in popularity too.

Hammer Horror movies (& Gothic novels) are set in a Christian universe where good is ultimately stronger than evil. Ravenloft is set in a Gnostic universe ruled by the Dark Powers, where evil is vastly stronger than good. In Hammer Horror characters are doomed by their personal flaws, or prevail through virtue, whereas in Ravenloft they can get stomped by superior evil force.

So, IMO Ravenloft does a poor job of emulating its apparent source material.

Quote from: S'mon;703104Hammer Horror movies (& Gothic novels) are set in a Christian universe where good is ultimately stronger than evil. Ravenloft is set in a Gnostic universe ruled by the Dark Powers, where evil is vastly stronger than good. In Hammer Horror characters are doomed by their personal flaws, or prevail through virtue, whereas in Ravenloft they can get stomped by superior evil force.

So, IMO Ravenloft does a poor job of emulating its apparent source material.

Genre doesn't necessarily equate with theme.

For me Ravenloft is relevant, but can't speak for others. I am only 37 and  the classic horror movies, hammer and classic horror stories were part of my childhood. I think thats what drew me to Ravenloft. It's very much a vintage horror setting with more of a pg-rating than say stuff inspired by Clive Barker (and I love Clive Barker)---even hammer studios is pretty tame compared to the horror movies of the 80s, 90s, and  00s. Ravenloft was never really modern horror, it always felt more like the horror of vincent price, peter cushing or lon chaney. If you like that stuff, Ravenloft can be a great fit. Whether people are still consuming those things, I don't know. However I have noticed in the wake of Saw and films like it, we had movies like paranormal activity....so it feels like we go back to more classic styles with less gore from time to time. And while I haven't seen the shows, saw a bunch of advertisements for shows about Dracula, Witches and similar classic material this fall. So it seems people are still into those things.

For me the issue with Ravenloft was always that it tried to cram too many classic horror tropes into an over all setting while giving each their own little world. It always felt a bit forced in that regard.

I loved the original module for the way it turned what could have been a simple encounter "Vampire in its lair" into a rich mini campaign.

I think Ravenloft is still relevant, after all there are still plenty of games, movies, TV, miniatures etc in that style. Look at Grimm or American Horror Story, or even the Walking Dead. These could easily be Ravenloft stories in the modern day. Hansel and Gretel: Witchunters reminded me of some of the Ravenloft games we played back in the day.

Certainly the idea of being trapped in a nightmare realm you cannot escape from is as relevant today as it ever was. Although it may appeal less as it is closer to real life than escapist fantasy.

Quote from: Simlasa;703032I think Saw and Hostel were the short-lived fad... meanwhile fairytales and costume dramas continue to appeal to wide audiences. Kids I know are quite aware of old legends and mythology... which are the same things Universal and Hammer drew from.

Indeed. Saw was pushed out of the Halloween weekend by the Paranormal Activity franchise. But Sleepy Hollow, Dracula and Frankenstein keep coming back in new incarnations.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014People who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.

So, given this sea-change, is Ravenloft even relevant anymore as a horror setting? And I ask this as someone who liked the classic setting.

I'm not sure we can reliably predict what The Kids These Days will or won't appreciate. Back in the early 80s when kids like me were discovering the old Hammer and AIP films on Movie Macabre and thinking they were awesome, I'm sure the conventional wisdom among studio execs was that the generation that grew up on slasher films would never go in for that hokey gothic stuff anymore.

Likewise, I wonder if George Lucas was ever warned that kids accustomed to 60s and early 70s era SciFi would never be interested in that silly Space Opera stuff from the 30s.

Quote from: Dimitrios;703189I'm not sure we can reliably predict what The Kids These Days will or won't appreciate. Back in the early 80s when kids like me were discovering the old Hammer and AIP films on Movie Macabre and thinking they were awesome, I'm sure the conventional wisdom among studio execs was that the generation that grew up on slasher films would never go in for that hokey gothic stuff anymore.

Likewise, I wonder if George Lucas was ever warned that kids accustomed to 60s and early 70s era SciFi would never be interested in that silly Space Opera stuff from the 30s.

Basically, yes.

Quote from: GrumpyReviewsPeople who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.

Very interesting thread!

I've got two points to begin with:

1) Although I think you're right that Ravenloft is modeled on an older type of horror, I do think it's possible to "modernize" it to some degree, if not in technology and time period than in sensibility.  I think it'd be quite possible to run Barker-esque Ravenloft, for example, not only by emphasizing the gore but by putting a particularly gruesome spin on Darklords and other monsters and villains and by running adventures that stress body horror.  I'm running a Ravenloft adventure right now involving rogue Intellect Devourers from Bluetspur invading Richemulot, taking over an asylum, and then performing disgusting experiments on the inmates.

2) 19th century Gothic novels are still reasonably well read (Frankenstein and Dracula are particularly well-known), so even if modern horror cinema has moved into different territory I don't think that "classic" Gothic horror has been utterly forgotten.  You do occasionally see games and movies inspired more by the old stuff.  Amnesia: The Dark Descent, for example, struck me as being very Gothic in a classic 19th century sense, with just a touch of gruesome body horror.

I have this notion of reinventing Azalin as a Lovecraftian character, like Abdul Alhazred if he had become a king.

In any event, I feel Ravenloft will need some adjustment to remain a market force, something purchased by people other than hardcore existing fans. However, such things do not always go well.