So in the generic systrms thread it was suggested that I check out Hero System Sixth Edition Basic (BR).  $15 later, hat tip to the drivethru folks, I am reading/listening to these rules.

And... wow.  I am pretty shocked by the complexity represented in the BASIC version of these rules.  I am not yet passing judgement, and am willing to let it grow on me, but check out this out-of-context example:

QuoteTo attack, roll 3d6. Add 11 to your OCV and subtract the number rolled from the total. That indicates what DCV you can hit. If the target's DCV is equal to or less than that, you hit him; if it's higher than that, you missed him. For example, if a character has OCV 10 and rolls an 8, he can hit (10 + 11 - 8 =) DCV 13 or less.

Again,  that's out of context, but it boggles me a bit...

Why subtract what you rolled, and I guess this means rolling low is better?  Maybe?  But I think damage is a "roll high" situation, so maybe not.

And why eleven?  3d6 should average to 10, or 9.5 or something, without exploding dice.  With exploding we should be above 12.

More to come, but I am definitely having fun trying to fit all this in a busy addled brain.

Quote from: mcbobbo;700642So in the generic systrms thread it was suggested that I check out Hero System Sixth Edition Basic (BR).  $15 later, hat tip to the drivethru folks, I am reading/listening to these rules.

And... wow.  I am pretty shocked by the complexity represented in the BASIC version of these rules.  I am not yet passing judgement, and am willing to let it grow on me, but check out this out-of-context example:



Again,  that's out of context, but it boggles me a bit...

Why subtract what you rolled, and I guess this means rolling low is better?  Maybe?  But I think damage is a "roll high" situation, so maybe not.
And why eleven?  3d6 should average to 10, or 9.5 or something, without exploding dice.  With exploding we should be above 12.

More to come, but I am definitely having fun trying to fit all this in a busy addled brain.

Just use the combat chart, it makes figuring what you need to hit what DCV allot easier anyhow.  BTW the book are you using has the Chart on page 94.  If you don't have it, I suggest getting Champions Complete, they streamlined and brought the rules down to a manageable level, but still use the Quick Reference Combat Chart, speeds up the calculations.

Quote from: mcbobbo;700642And why eleven?  3d6 should average to 10, or 9.5 or something, without exploding dice.  With exploding we should be above 12.

Average on 3d6 is 10.5.  1d6 averages to 3.5, *3 = 10.5.

This book, exactly -http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/64691/HERO-System-Basic-Rulebook

Also I am a bit annoyed at the use of the word "roll" in Skill Roll.  It isn't a roll at all, but a target number to roll against, assuming I read it correctly.

Quote from: mcbobbo;700652This book, exactly -http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/64691/HERO-System-Basic-Rulebook

Also I am a bit annoyed at the use of the word "roll" in Skill Roll.  It isn't a roll at all, but a target number to roll against, assuming I read it correctly.

I love the underlying Hero System design - but I agree that it is complex, and many bits were fine or even innovative when it came out in 1981, but are holdovers now.

When I was running PS238 for kids, I added 10 to DCV, and the DCV you hit was OCV+3d6 (mathematically the same).

They're doinking around with the calculation to make it more like d20.  The original is easier to understand:  11 + OCV - DCV.  Roll less than or equal to that number to hit.

I played Champions/Hero System for years and finally bailed midway through 4th edition (the BBB).  The only reason it gets any respect at all is through sheer force of nostalgia and longevity; every part of the system is conceptually and mathematically broken beyond repair.

It had a couple of excellent writers producing content for it back in the day; Aaron Allston's Strike Force is easily the best superhero campaign supplement ever written and Steve Long gets the Batman TAS genre better than none other, save perhaps Dini and Timm themselves.

Why do you say it's mathematically broken?

Quote from: Bunch;700689Why do you say it's mathematically broken?

Yeah, why?

I like the variable costs, where a point of Dex is more useful and therefore costs you more.  But the maths are, well, wonkey.  9+(stat/5), roll under.  That's definitely unique.

Oh, boy.  Just off the top of my head: Steve Goodman's School of Cost Effectiveness.

In the supplement Champions II, there was an article where - I am not making this up - the author showed how to maximize your character's effectiveness by pointing out that the intersection of several of the odd formulae for generating secondary characteristics and values resulted in sweet spots.  There's a reason why so many characters have DEX 23, for instance.

If you want specific examples:

STR ranges from 10 to 20 for a normal campaign, but the only values that have any mechanical meaning in the system are 10, 13, 15, 18, and 20. The intermediate values are superfluous.  Similar breakpoints exist for all the other stats, but they aren't at the same values.

DEX and CON have "sweet spots" that are so advantageous that you're hurting yourself by not using them, since the number of points you get is so limited (I note that they've increased the number of points starting characters get now, mostly to address this issue).

If you aren't planning on raising INT and EGO, there is no good reason not to buy them both down to 8.  You lose absolutely nothing in terms of mechanics, and if you're playing in a campaign with powers you can use those five points to buy Mental Defense and be significantly more resistant than if you'd left the stats at 10 and 10.

COM costs half a point per point of COM, but has no mechanical function in the system.  At all.  Anywhere.  If you don't care about how you look, you can buy it down to 0 and get a free five points.

That's just the problem with the attribute math; the issues run all the way through the system and culminate in the fact that the much-vaunted power build system is a giant conceptual trap: it doesn't do what it says it does, and it never has, but it's influenced almost as many RPGs as D&D.  It's virtually impossible to find a mainstream superhero RPG that didn't follow Champions right off the point-buy cliff.

I love Hero System, but it sucks.  It really does.  It's pretty much impossible to pick an entry point other than finding a group that already plays, and spending a not inconsiderable amount of time figuring out the rules and being tutored by the group.

I don't know if that means it's "broken".  I don't think math can be "broken", it can just give results other than the ones that people want.

If the idea is that a point buy system should result in characters that are equally effective (or even roughly comparable), then yeah, it probably doesn't meet that.  In fact, most point buy systems *don't* meet that, some more so than others.

If the desired goal is to provide a system to master and then demonstrate that mastery via optimized characters, I think it works pretty well.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;700714I love Hero System, but it sucks.  It really does.  It's pretty much impossible to pick an entry point other than finding a group that already plays, and spending a not inconsiderable amount of time figuring out the rules and being tutored by the group.

And the inevitable fights over how to build something.

(I.e. when I started, I made a character that was a fighter pilot, so while in a vehicle, he increases the Defensive Value. Now, I figured since it only increased his DCV while in a vehicle, it gets a disadvantage, and I can buy it at reduced cost. Wrong. Since it's "affecting an outside entity", you have to buy a number of expensive advantages, which greatly increases the cost. My +2 DCV in a plane went from 7 points to 37 points, IIRC. It was cheaper to become a Kung-Fu Master, than make the plane a little harder to hit.)

Quote from: Novastar;700720And the inevitable fights over how to build something.

(I.e. when I started, I made a character that was a fighter pilot, so while in a vehicle, he increases the Defensive Value. Now, I figured since it only increased his DCV while in a vehicle, it gets a disadvantage, and I can buy it at reduced cost. Wrong. Since it's "affecting an outside entity", you have to buy a number of expensive advantages, which greatly increases the cost. My +2 DCV in a plane went from 7 points to 37 points, IIRC. It was cheaper to become a Kung-Fu Master, than make a plane a little harder to hit.)

Well, that does explain why in a certain popular Sci - Fi franchise recently purchased by a certain media mogul, the best pilots are usually also (an equivalent of) Kung Fu Masters .

"I guess I might just spend those few more points in case I'm attacked on the ground".

I agree that the Hero System has a very difficult learning curve, which means the main option for playing is people who have already learned it. I don't play it with any of my regular groups these days for that reason, though I still will run and play in one-shots.

It is definitely on the complex side, particularly if you are dealing with powers.

On the other hand, I don't think that the point system is broken - unless you're holding it up to some ideal of perfect balance. This isn't possible, and even if it were possible, it isn't necessary for fun play. Played with a cooperative group, the Hero games I have been in had a wide variety of interesting characters who worked well together.

Quote from: jhkim;700724On the other hand, I don't think that the point system is broken - unless you're holding it up to some ideal of perfect balance. This isn't possible, and even if it were possible, it isn't necessary for fun play. Played with a cooperative group, the Hero games I have been in had a wide variety of interesting characters who worked well together.

So the question I have is if the point system doesn't provide reasonable levels of balance (nevermind "perfect balance"), then what value does it add?  Isn't that the whole premise of a point-buy system, that two characters with the same point cost will (assuming people aren't deliberately sabotaging their characters) be within some margin of effectiveness of each other?

IOW, if you just threw out the whole point buy thing and came up with a bunch of powers, and the GM just approved or disapproved of the characters, would that be worse than the current system?